296: Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors with Erica Rooney

What’s Really Holding You Back in Your Career? 

Ever feel like you’re doing all the right things in your career, but still not moving forward? While it's easy to blame external forces, leadership expert and former Chief People Officer Erica Rooney believes the real barriers may lie much closer to home.

In this powerful episode, Erica introduces the concept of “sticky floors,” which are the internalized beliefs and self-sabotaging behaviors that keep high-potential professionals stuck. Sharing a deeply personal story of betrayal by a trusted colleague, Erica walks us through how a moment of disillusionment sparked her professional transformation. She realized she couldn’t control others’ integrity, but she could control how she showed up, responded, and grew.

Erica also shares her SNAP method (Stop, Name it, Ask Questions, Pivot), a practical, science-backed framework for identifying and overcoming hidden patterns that limit progress. Along the way, Erica shares her powerful insights on workplace allyship, including what men can do right now to support women colleagues better. 

Key Takeaways:

• Erica’s turning point: when a respected colleague took credit for her idea
• The difference between glass ceilings (external) and sticky floors (internal)
• How the SNAP method helps professionals shift from stuck to strategic
• The power of the word “yet” to reframe capability and growth
• Common sticky floors: perfectionism, fear of failure, and self-doubt
• How men can be better allies to women in the workplace
• Why strong manager relationships are key to promotion and visibility
• You’re not stuck—you just haven’t moved yet

Connect with Erica Rooney

LinkedIn | Podcast | Get Her Book

Chapters

• 0:00 Building Manager Relationships for Success
• 1:32 Meet Erica Rooney, Leadership Powerhouse
• 3:12 The Mid-Career Moment: Betrayal & Realization
• 7:11 Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors Defined
• 12:53 The SNAP Method: From Stuck to Action
• 18:26 Allyship: How Men Can Support Women
• 27:28 Never Stuck: Building Your Mid-Career GPS
• 30:14 Closing Thoughts and Final Advice

Transcript

John Neral: 0:00

One of the most important relationships you will ever build in your career is with your manager. Having someone who understands the quality of your work is essential for having an advocate for your career. After all, if that person is sitting at the table or in the room where promotions are being discussed, you want to be the person they're talking about, but what happens if you, or perhaps someone or something else is holding you back? Today's guest will talk to you about the sticky floors that are holding you back from achieving the recognition and success you desire. In a few moments, you will meet Erica Rooney, who will share her career trajectory, why allyship is important for your career advancement, and her SNAP method to help you have the necessary conversations to elevate your career as you build your mid-career GPS. So let's get started. Hello, my friends, this is the Mid-Career GPS Podcast and I'm your host, John Neral. I help mid-career professionals like you find a job they love or love the job they have, using my proven four-step formula, or love the job they have, using my proven four-step formula.

John Neral: 1:31

Erica Rooney is a powerhouse in leadership, gender equality and workplace culture. With over 15 years of human resources experience, including her role as chief people officer in the tech industry. She's the best-selling author of Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors Shattering Limiting Beliefs and Toxic Behaviors to Uncover Infinite Possibilities, and she's also the host of the Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors podcast, where she inspires thousands to break free from limiting beliefs and step into infinite possibilities. Erica is the founder of Her Collective, a digital community and movement designed to empower women to advance their careers, amplify their voice and unlock their full potential without sacrificing their authenticity or well-being. And Erica has graced iconic stages like South by Southwest and Chief, and her work has been featured in Forbes, success Magazine and CBS News.

John Neral: 2:30

Whether she's partnering with top organizations or challenging the status quo, erica is on a mission to help people and companies shatter barriers, unlock their potential and achieve success without limits. We've got a lot to discuss, so let's dive in. It is my pleasure to introduce you to Erica Rooney. Hey there, erica. Welcome to the show. I'm so glad to have you here today.

Erica Rooney: 2:56

John, I have been waiting for this conversation all day.

John Neral: 3:00

Me too. We're going to have a great conversation. Love your story. Shared a little bit about it in the introduction. But before we get started, erica, you've got a mid-career moment you want to share with us, so please tell us what that was or is.

Erica Rooney: 3:12

Oh my gosh, I always talk about this moment and I like to preface it with. You know, like everybody has that turning point in their professional life that really kind of divides time into the before and into the after, and I love that you named it, this mid-career moment, and I think a lot of people think it's this big, monumentous thing. But for me, this mid-career moment came when I was sitting in my car bawling my eyes out and I was in my company parking lot and I had just been betrayed by someone that I really, really looked up to and really trusted. And I'll paint the picture for you I had been working with this company that I was obsessed with, I resonated with their mission and their vision and I really thought that I would be with that company for a long time and I had this great idea that would really kind of shake up the way we did work With my department. It would completely reorg it. It was exciting, it was a big change and it would finally take my role and elevate it into a leadership position, if I played my cards right. But unfortunately, the person that I pitched the idea to walked into an executive meeting and pitched that idea as his own and the leadership role that I had envisioned for myself was given to somebody else.

Erica Rooney: 4:36

And in a moment, my entire future for this company was completely cut off. And so I remember, just sitting in my car, I had tears streaming down my face, I was gripping the steering wheel so tightly that my knuckles were white and I just kept playing over and over and over in my head like how did I let this happen? What did I do wrong? And, more importantly, why was I such a failure? And I think you know I wasn't a failure, but at that moment it sure felt like it. And the reason that this was my mid-career moment was because one of those days in my car right, because I did what we all do I got up, I dried my eyes and I kept going back to work, but I just wasn't really there. Right, I wasn't having lunches with my team, I wasn't going on afternoon walks with them anymore, I wasn't being a team player and I was instead locking myself in the car or hiding in my office.

Erica Rooney: 5:30

Right, and this monumental moment came because I realized one day, while I was having a little mentee breakdown, that number one I couldn't control what other people did, what they said or their integrity. Learn that the hard way, right. But I could control how I showed up every single day. I could control what I believed about myself, right, all those negative things that I was saying they weren't true. I could believe my like, that it was in my control to get out of this situation.

Erica Rooney: 6:06

And so, at that same time though I had this like a light bulb moment that this was really my first time crashing my head up against a glass ceiling, and it was my first moment really recognizing that the system that I was working in was outdated and it didn't work for me. So in that moment, this mid-career moment of mine, I had this epiphany that, number one, I did not have to stay stuck, that I could control what I did next, and, number two, I don't have to wait for these outdated systems to change in order for me to be successful. And that was the moment that turned everything for me, john.

John Neral: 6:40

So, erica, when you think back on that moment and you think about how your career has been shaped since then, you mention about the term glass ceiling, and your book is called Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors Shattering Limiting Beliefs and Toxic Behaviors to Uncover Infinite Possibilities. Toxic behaviors to uncover infinite possibilities. I want you to define for our listeners today how you define a glass ceiling, and then we'll talk about a sticky floor.

Erica Rooney: 7:15

Yes, so I do believe, and I know to be true, that real glass ceilings, that invisible barrier that keeps women and other minorities stuck and out of leadership positions, exist, right, only 29% of C-level positions are filled by females. Okay, for every 100 men that are promoted, only 87 women are promoted. That means we're leaving 13 women behind. And then not only that, but women are two times more likely to be considered as someone more junior, even when they're sitting at the damn table, right? So there's that glass ceiling, but then there's also the ceilings that we place over ourselves, and those are the ones that I talk about a lot, right? What do we believe we're capable of? What do we believe is possible? What can we control? And most often, it's those ceilings that are keeping you small and keeping you stuck.

John Neral: 8:13

So, in thinking about that and of course, here we are in the early stages of 2025, and there's been a lot of conversation and a lot of dismantling around diversity, equity and inclusion, and that conversation, as we have seen it unfold, has certainly I'll use the word been skewed in certain ways that are not entirely accurate. And so, when we think about women who are wanting to elevate into these positions, that they're at the table but they're being considered for more junior-level positions, in all of your conversations the keynotes you're delivering, the organizations you're speaking to what are you seeing as the tenor of this conversation around making sure that people are not being held back in ways that are going to put us back in the past instead of moving us forward?

Erica Rooney: 9:22

Yeah, I personally do think this whole dismantling of DEI is a load of bullshit, to be honest. Right, and we know why it's happening, ok, so we don't need to dive into that, but it is going. It is going to set us back a bit, and that's why what I think is absolutely bananas is my book is more relevant today because of the political climate than it was when I first started writing it. That's wild, you know, because it is right. Usually it's the reverse. Usually you start writing about something and then you're like OK, yeah, I see it. No, no, no, no.

Erica Rooney: 9:58

Mine has been in the flip side, right, because with all of the dismantling of DEI and like people taking away all of the opportunities that we are giving people that don't have opportunities, right, we're leveling the playing field that's gone. So now we have to do more work for ourselves. We're going to have to fight harder, we're going to have to lean in further. We are going to have to do all of that right, and like it's not women's responsibility, sole responsibility, to fix right, we need everybody in our corner, right, in every minority corner. We're going to need a lot of help because coming from the top down right now, it's not in support of us.

John Neral: 10:39

So, in line with that, you've defined for us this notion of a glass ceiling, which is hopefully a familiar term to a lot of people. Sticky floors probably not.

Erica Rooney: 10:57

So what's a sticky floor? Yes, oh my gosh. I tell people this all the time because they look at me like a little sideways, a little crazy. Sometimes they're like, okay, she's a mom, is she talking about like her own kitchen, like I don't know? And yes, those floors are a wreck sometimes, okay, I got two littles at home. But I'm not talking about those sticky floors.

Erica Rooney: 11:15

Sticky floors for me, john, are the limiting beliefs in the toxic behaviors that keep you stuck. So it's the words of self-doubt that are whispering in your ear, that you're not good enough, you're not qualified enough, right. It's the perfectionism that keeps you trapped. It tells you you can't apply for that job. You don't meet every criteria, right. It's the fear of failure that keeps you from taking the strategic risks that you need to climb the ladder.

Erica Rooney: 11:37

Those are sticky floors in the limiting belief sense. But then there's also the toxic behaviors that keep you stuck, and this is where my work differs a little, because a lot of people focus on limiting behaviors or limiting beliefs. But toxic behaviors also keep you stuck. So, too much wine on a Wednesday, right? Doom scrolling TikTok at midnight when you know you should be getting sleep because you got a big presentation tomorrow, or even staying in a relationship that no longer serves you. Those are all things that are keeping you stuck. And so when you have those limiting beliefs and you have the toxic behaviors, it's say is at that manager senior manager level and they want to move into that director level, but they're feeling stuck either organizationally or personally.

John Neral: 12:49

How would you guide them through that?

Erica Rooney: 12:52

I would take them through what I call my snap method right, and this is a four-step science back framework that gets you from stuck into action and this is what really helps you dismantle those limiting beliefs and toxic behaviors. Because here's the tricky piece about all of this they often live in your unconscious mind so you don't even know that you're doing it right. And so, real quick, I'll break down the SNAP method for you, what it stands for, and then we'll dive into it and I'll use an example to kind of illustrate it. But the SNAP method simple, not easy to do stands for stop and take notes of what's going on in the body. The N stands for name it, A is for ask and answer some deep and personal questions and the P is for pivoting.

Erica Rooney: 13:37

So one of the things that I see in my work with people at that kind of mid-level management they want to move up, but they're not quite there yet. They're feeling stuck, whether organizationally or personally is the first thing I do is I ask them, like when you're going through a regular day, do you have any indicators that something feels off inside your body? And I'll give them an example. I'll say, for example, like if you're getting antsy about a big presentation, right, you might get sweaty palms, you might feel the nerves or the anxiety, like those are signals from your body that something is out of equilibrium. And so I'm a big believer in like stop and take note if you aren't feeling the way you normally feel when you show up and you're in flow.

Erica Rooney: 14:19

Right, Because the body keeps score. It tells you what's up. So, even before you know what's happening, your body is giving you these signals. Once you stop and take note, Right, and I'll tell you a story with me. On, let me just. We're gonna cut right there, I'm gonna dive in Cause I wanna start over and I wanna feed it into every single one.

John Neral: 14:39

So make a note. Thank you, John, Got it absolutely All right.

Erica Rooney: 14:45

So the SNAP method stands for stop and take note of what's going on in the body. The N stands for name it, a is ask and answer some deep and personal questions and the P is for pivot. And I'll tell you a story from myself, that kind of weaves in to show you how I discovered I was really struggling with imposter syndrome one day. And let me tell you, john, this came to me when I was in the C-suite, okay, but I went to a speaker's bootcamp and I thought, okay, this will be fun. I show up at the cocktail happy hour and I really quickly recognize that everyone in the room knows each other, that they're all professionals, they've all been doing this for years and I'm just a chief people officer. I had immediate anxiety and I'm usually this extroverted, bubbly person, I want to talk to everybody. But I felt like a fish out of water.

Erica Rooney: 15:36

Now, in the moment. I didn't know that right, I didn't have the hindsight to recognize that. But as soon as I could find an exit point, I ran to the elevator and as soon as those doors closed, it was relief. And then I was like whoa, erica, what's that about? I could feel all the stress and everything leaving my body. So I stopped and I just took note of what was going on. And then I named that sticky floor. For me it was imposter syndrome. I was in a room filled with people who all knew what they were doing and I was a newbie, so I really didn't feel good. Now the importance of naming your sticky floor is that once you name that sticky floor, you actually start to take ownership of it, and there are studies out there that show when you can name an emotion and you state that it actually reduces the intensity in which you feel those emotions. So if you sit there and you say, oh my gosh, I'm feeling imposter syndrome, I don't feel like I fit in here, like I belong here, that reduces those feelings of intensity.

Erica Rooney: 16:37

But then you got to get into the meat of the work, which is the ask and answer some deep and pivotal questions, because you want to uncover why do you feel this way? Why is this your reaction? Because once you understand why you're reacting a certain way, you can then move to the next step. But with ask and answer, I always love to share these very two powerful questions when you're trying to figure out why do I feel this way? The two most powerful questions you can ask are is this thought helpful and is this thought true? So for me, in that elevator, I was having all of those thoughts of I don't belong here. Everybody's so much better than me I got to get out of here fast, right. Were those thoughts helpful? Absolutely not. Everybody is a beginner.

Erica Rooney: 17:19

Once, every single person in that room felt the way I was feeling in that moment. And then, is this thought true that I'm an imposter, that I don't belong Again? No, true that I'm an imposter, that I don't belong Again? No. So once I got through that, I could move to the pivot, which is simply a reframe. It's looking at the situation in a different light.

Erica Rooney: 17:38

And so for me, I had two choices that day right, I could choose to show up the next day and give it my all and just see what happens. Or I could sit in the back and just, you know, take notes because I already paid, you know. Then go home, right, but you know what I did. I said I'm going to make the most of this. I don't belong here with air quotes as a professional speaker yet, but I can be one. And when there came a moment for me to get up and like share on the mic. Oh, I was sweating, I was nervous, I was like flushed, but I was like this is my moment and I grabbed that mic and I shared my story. And you know what happened after that, john. It gave every single person in that room a reason and an opportunity to talk to me.

Erica Rooney: 18:24

And it completely changed the situation.

John Neral: 18:28

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John Neral: 19:36

Now let's get back to the episode. Absolutely, I thank you for walking us through that, because I'm sure there's a lot of people listening who can relate, especially. We all deal with imposter syndrome on some level. Relate, especially. We all deal with imposter syndrome on some level. Erica, the thing that you said there that made me take note was the word yet why in your work and in the things that you do and how you help people? Why is it so important to drive home the power of the word, yet to help them reach those infinite possibilities you talk about?

Erica Rooney: 20:12

Yeah, because I mean I believe in infinite possibilities and I know it sounds like fluffy and you know, I don't know, magical I suppose. But like, I truly believe that you can do anything you wanna do, you can be anything you wanna be Like, if you just work, work towards it Right, and once you realize that you were the only one stopping yourself right, you were the only one stopping yourself you will be able to do all of those things. So when you say things like I can't run, I can't speak up, I don't do presentations, yet.

Erica Rooney: 20:48

Yeah, yet, because you can always speak up. I don't do presentations yet yeah, yet, because you can always do that, and the only person that's holding you back is you.

John Neral: 20:55

Yeah, I love that and that's one of my favorite words as well. I just oftentimes I have to catch myself and recognize sometimes that, all right, just maybe I haven't done something to date Just means I just haven't done it yet. Yeah, and it's still there.

Erica Rooney: 21:10

It's super helpful when you have kids and you're looking at this, because I'm always. They're always learning new things, you know. I mean, they're always falling down, they're always getting back up, they're always picking up new skills, and so it's a really great reminder If you feel like these are the things I can't do and you start noticing that you're putting limitations on yourself. Look at a kid, look at what they're doing, like they are falling down and scraping their knees every single day.

John Neral: 21:33

And resilient and they get back up and do it again and they get back up and they do it again, right, erica, you and I had a great conversation before we started recording this interview, and one of the things I want to talk with us about right now is this whole idea of allyship. Having people in your corner who are actively supporting and advocating for your growth and development is something we all seek at some point in time in our lives and careers, and hopefully we get to maintain that as well. Where can men right now be better allies for women?

Erica Rooney: 22:16

Oh, I got a lot of answers and I think there's different avenues, right? I think that the very first thing that comes into my mind when it comes to women, men being better allies for women is, first and just listening, listening to everything that is weighing on women's hearts and on their minds, because we're stressed out, we're worried, we're scared, right. We don't know if we can do all of these things that we want to do and achieve everything that we want to achieve and like let's remember that the generation that's like in the workforce right now that's, you know, in their 30s and 40s we were all told that we could have it all, do it all and be it all, because our mothers were the generation that could really be nurses or teachers, you know. So when they were like, oh my gosh, you have this freedom, you can do anything you want to do, we really latched onto that and we were like, yeah, we can and we can be that stay at home mom too. Yeah, no, we can't. There's not that much time in the day, right? All of these super successful, old, pale, stale, white male CEOs. They have stay at home, wives at home who are doing everything for them.

Erica Rooney: 23:31

So the first thing for allyship is just asking women what's weighing on their hearts and their minds because we got a lot going on right and then figuring out how to help, because I do believe the best in people, right, and I do believe that we all have these biases that we don't realize exist. And so if you are a man and you see another man that is doing something that is not okay, that is speaking over a woman, taking credits for a woman's work, all of that you need to call it out when you see it, because some of the most pivotal moments for me were when a man stepped up and said, hey, that was Erica's idea, or why don't we give Erica the floor? Or how about we let Erica speak? And then, when I stepped up into a position of power, which is also a position of privilege, I could do it for others.

John Neral: 24:21

Thank you for that. Those are great things to keep in mind, and especially for anyone who is listening when you see it. When you see that bad behavior, call it out. Don't just let it sit there, call it out immediately.

Erica Rooney: 24:37

Absolutely Right, and there's ways too, john, that you can do it in a way that's not going to make someone feel like a total jerk sometimes, right, because sometimes, like people don't realize what they're doing and you don't want to make them feel bad about it, and that's fine. There are ways that you can just say hey, actually wasn't Erica just saying that same thing a couple of minutes ago? Why don't we let her explain it? That is a perfect way to shut down some mansplaining and to to highlight a woman. So you've just you've got to speak up and you've got to be an advocate, right? All the things that women got to deal with childbearing, menopause, mansplaining the list is on and on. Wherever you can dive in and help and try to just understand, like that's what women want.

John Neral: 25:23

That's such a great point because calling that out is simply good human being behavior. Don't be a jerk, Don't be an asshole. Right Be, be a good human being. That's there. That is is standing up and advocating for people, because you'd want the same thing.

Erica Rooney: 25:44

Yeah, and here's the thing we all do bad behavior when we see it.

John Neral: 25:47

Oh gosh.

Erica Rooney: 25:48

We just don't like calling it out, but that is the only thing that's going to drive change right, and I'm not talking about calling it out on the internet or calling it out on LinkedIn, like you need to call it out in the place of which you live, because that is where change starts. It starts in your home.

John Neral: 26:03

Oh, so well said, so well said. Erica, I'm going to pivot with you for a moment because there's a question I wanted to ask you as we dig back into your chief people officer days for a moment, before we start wrapping up. So many people right now in this job market are thinking about what that next job might be, or they're actively looking for a new job right now. I'm curious what is the best job interview question you've ever been asked?

Erica Rooney: 26:37

Hmm, I mean this is very specific to HR but it has to be shared. So any HR practitioners this is the money question and, believe it or not, it came from a CFO which is so interesting, but the best interview question I had when I was interviewing for an HR role was Erica which states do you hate the most? And I thought that was such a funny question. But if you are an HR, you know every state has different requirements and different laws and so New Jersey's got paid leave, california's crazy, you know. So we all have these states that we hate and like that is a really good way to uncover if you have a true HR practitioner, because we can rattle off the states we hate the most real quick.

John Neral: 27:31

That is such an interesting answer because when I heard that question, my mind went to a totally different place. Where'd it go? Well, it went to red and blue states, right, like trying to figure out where do you kind of align, without having to be like, so what political affiliation are you at, which obviously you can't ask. But then, because our brains are so dynamic and funny, right. And then I thought, well, yeah, like what's the worst state that I've traveled to that I would never want to go back to again? Yeah, I find out real quick, john, that you were posing You're not going to be in to elevate their career in this very dynamic and fast-moving time. So if you could give our listeners today one piece of advice to help them build their mid-career GPS, what would it be?

Erica Rooney: 28:39

Know that you are never stuck. Right, you always have the opportunity to change jobs, change industries, change professions. It is not going to happen overnight, right, it's not. It might not even happen in a year, right. Some of these things that you have to do to truly get to where you want to go take a long time, and so don't just up and quit your job, you know, because you don't like the culture or even because it's toxic. Right, you have to think about your own well-being. First, get that psychological safety, get all your needs met, and then take action. Right, show up, do a good job, but keep your dream in sight, because you were never stuck.

John Neral: 29:24

Absolutely yes, in big capital letters, erica, thank you so very stuck. Absolutely yes, in big capital letters, erica, thank you so very much. If people want to connect with you, find out more about you, learn from you, I'm going to turn the mic over to you. Please tell us all the great places where people can connect.

Erica Rooney: 29:37

Well, if they really love the message that we shared today on the podcast, I would say read the book Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors. It's endorsed by Mel Robbins, which was very exciting, and if you enjoy that, you can find me on my own podcast called the Glass Ceiling and Sticky Floor Podcast. And you know what? Come meet me over there on LinkedIn. That is my other permanent address and I'm there every single day, so tell me you heard me on this podcast and let's chat.

John Neral: 30:05

I will make sure all of that is in the show notes. But, erica Rooney, thank you so much for being a wonderful guest and sharing your wisdom today on the Mid-Career GPS podcast. Thank you All right, my friends. Erica dropped a lot of truth bombs with us today and so many things I hope you're considering, but I want to leave you with this.

John Neral: 30:23

Where's your sticky floor? What's that limiting belief that you have that is holding you back from showing up and playing full out the way you want to? And if you are actively looking for a job, maybe you've been turned down for an internal promotion or you just haven't achieved that level within your career. You know you are ready for. Just remember that. It simply hasn't happened yet, but it will, and that's why you need to keep building your mid-career GPS because, as we've said time and time again, you will build your mid-career GPS one mile or one step at a time, and how you show up matters. Make it a great rest of your day.

John Neral: 31:14

Thank you for listening to the Mid-Career GPS Podcast. Make sure to follow on your favorite listening platform and, if you have a moment, I'd love to hear your comments on Apple Podcasts. Visit johnnerrellcom for more information about how I can help you build your mid-career GPS or how I can help you and your organization with your next workshop or public speaking event. Don't forget to connect with me on LinkedIn and follow me on social at John Narrow Coaching. I look forward to being back with you next week. Until then, take care and remember how we show up matters. Thank, you.