The Mid-Career GPS Podcast
How will you figure out what is next for you and your career? Building a Mid-Career GPS to create that next promotion, finding a new job, building your network, and crushing your next interview are just some topics we cover on The Mid-Career GPS Podcast.
John Neral had a mid-career moment that changed his path and direction. Building a Mid-Career GPS helped guide him to create what was next for his career. Now, he’s here to help you do the same. Join him and his guests as they share their stories, strategies, and tips to help you create whatever is next so you can find a job you love or love the job you have.
The Mid-Career GPS Podcast
291: Kind Curiosity: How to Navigate DEI Conversations with Bernadette Smith
How can mid-career professionals engage in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) conversations without fear of saying the wrong thing? Bernadette Smith, CEO of the Equality Institute, shares her ARC Method—Ask, Respect, Connect—a simple yet powerful approach to fostering authentic connections while ensuring psychological safety at work.
In This Episode, You'll Learn:
✅ How to navigate DEI discussions with confidence and "kind curiosity"
✅ Why over-apologizing for mistakes can do more harm than good
✅ How to build meaningful relationships in workplaces scaling back DEI efforts
✅ Why progress in social movements includes setbacks—but connections endure
✅ How pickleball (yes, pickleball!) offers surprising lessons in inclusion
Key Takeaways:
✔ The ARC Method makes DEI conversations more approachable and effective
✔ A simple, sincere apology is better than over-apologizing
✔ Asking for help isn’t a weakness—it strengthens relationships
✔ DEI isn’t about political correctness—it’s about harnessing diversity for success
Subscribe to Bernadette’s newsletter → FiveThingsDEI.com
Bernadette Smith’s Website → https://BernadetteSmith.com
Listen to her podcast → Five Things in 15 Minutes
If you're looking to lead with inclusion and confidence, this episode is a must-listen!
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This year, we have seen tremendous changes around the conversation on DEI. Yes, we can still talk about it and we will, in this episode, see. As mid-career leaders and professionals, I know that one of your biggest concerns is that you don't want to make a mistake. And what if that mistake resulted in you potentially being canceled? How could you show up with meaningful intentions and without fear of being canceled or doing irreputable harm to your career? You show up from a place that my guest today calls kind curiosity.
John Neral:Today, I am joined by Bernadette Smith, the CEO of the Equality Institute, who is here to talk to us about what it means to have good vibes in DEI, especially in today's world. She'll also talk to us about what DEI truly is, how unconscious assumptions can be handled. How unconscious assumptions can be handled. She'll share with us her ARC method for handling any situation and why her love of pickleball has been a great source of connecting with others. So let's get started.
John Neral:Hello, my friends, this is the Mid-Career GPS Podcast and I'm your host, John Neral. I help mid-career professionals like you find a job they love, or love the job they have, using my proven four-step formula. Bernadette Smith, the CEO, use humor and relatability to inspire meaningful action, winning over even the skeptics. Praised as relatable, authentic and fun, Bernadette's approach has earned the trust of leading brands, including Fortune 500 companies and global leadership teams. Her influence as a champion for inclusion and belonging has been spotlighted by the New York Times, National Public Radio, CNN and the Today Show, and she's been named one of Chicago's notable LGBTQ executives by Crane's Chicago Business. So it is my pleasure to introduce you to Bernadette Smith. Bernadette, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you here today.
Bernadette Smith:Thanks, John. It's a treat to be invited, yes we're going to have a great conversation.
John Neral:I appreciate you being here with us today, because this whole conversation around DEI is one that we need to have and we're going to talk about it. Your journey, however, is interesting to say the least. You've got a pretty powerful mid-career moment I would love for you to share with us.
Bernadette Smith:Well, I used to be a wedding planner with an LGBTQ specialty and now I own a small management consulting firm and I'm a speaker and writer. That's what I love to do is speak and write, so I left the weddings behind.
Bernadette Smith:Do you miss it? Well, I certainly didn't miss it during COVID, let's be honest. But no, I don't miss it at all. In fact, I don't really even have those skills anymore. I'm not nearly as organized as I used to be. It's like those skills faded away and now I really think that I've sort of, and I am, a visionary person. It's just that the business that I chose happened to be wedding planning, which requires a lot of attention to detail.
John Neral:Without question and I love how you bring up that sometimes our skills transition and we don't. When we don't use those particularly skills, we're not as good at them that we would be now, as opposed to when we were years ago.
Bernadette Smith:Yeah, exactly, exactly.
John Neral:I say the same thing because I used to teach mathematics and friends will be like can you tutor my kid? I'm like it's been 15 years since I've done it. I could probably but it's not something I want to do, right?
John Neral:So you kind of have to keep working those, those muscles and stuff. I don't want to. I don't want to save this until the end, because this is just an interesting fact that you and I had talked about in our pre-call. But you love pickleball and I'm wondering if you can just share with us like what's been that for you, especially as an outlet, but also as for potentially networking.
Bernadette Smith:Yeah, so pickleball is a passion of mine. I play probably six times a week in the summer or when it's warm out, and then right now I'm playing three or four times a week. You know I I love it because it's the first hobby I've ever had. You know, I've been an entrepreneur for 20 years and that has required a lot of hustle, energy, a lot of obsession with my business in an unhealthy way, and I didn't have an outlet that had ever really stuck before and nothing really interested me or stuck. But as soon as I played pickleball for the first time, it was an obsession and it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion, and so it's sort of given me a lot of stories as well and a good opportunity to meet folks and to network. So, yeah, it's definitely it's. It brings me into worlds that I wouldn't otherwise find.
John Neral:Talk to us a little bit about how Pickleball connects to DEI for you.
Bernadette Smith:Sure. So a lot of Pickleball is played in open play, which is essentially like a pickup game you never know quite who's going to be there and so it can be an opportunity to meet lots of different kinds of folks, and one of the first experiences I had was, you know, getting decently good at pickleball and having starting to have some swagger and some confidence, and then getting my, my butt beat by a bunch of 70 year olds, right. So learning that I'm ageist on the pickleball court is certainly, you know, kind of a lesson in inclusion or a lesson even in, you know, my own biases, right. And so the pickleball brings so many different kinds of people together. You know that's the diversity, and, and I've even played with people in wheelchairs, so it's, it's really been a gift. A gift Lots of amazing folks, I mean. Yeah.
John Neral:No, thank you. Thank you for sharing that, and let's never underestimate the power of a 70-year-old who's really good at pickleball or other things as well.
John Neral:Bernadette, I want to let our listeners in here, so you and I are recording this episode on February 20th. This episode is scheduled to drop in early April and it goes without question that the conversation around diversity, equity and inclusion has been a big topic and focus, especially in the first quarter of this year. In your bio and I mentioned this a little bit in the introduction but your intention is to shine the light on good vibes in DEI and inspire others to connect authentically with those different from themselves, and I love how you phrase that. But can you let us in in terms of what are good vibes in DEI to you?
Bernadette Smith:what are good vibes in DEI to you? Oh, good vibes in DEI. So I have been. I have a newsletter called Five Things and a podcast that goes along with it, called Five Things in 15 Minutes, and those five things are always what I consider to be good vibes in DEI, and I started writing it about six years ago, and what I find are silver linings. Sometimes it is companies standing up when and in the past I should say I have featured.
Bernadette Smith:You know companies who stood up when you know abortion rights were overturned and they were providing travel reimbursements for their employees traveling out of state, things like that. You know things that were like shining lights. I've everything from first black artist to win a country music award Beyonce or a Grammy for country music Beyonce. So that's a good vibe in DEI. You know some things from the last Super Bowl. You know Jalen Hunt's all women management team, the winning quarterback right, or Jalen Hurts. So those are the types of things. Sometimes they're related to human resources policies and benefits. Sometimes they're related to public policies or anti-discrimination laws that are passed. Sometimes they're about products and marketing.
John Neral:When you watch or you read the news or you're following on social media and you're seeing the conversations that are out there around DEI. What is it that you believe people are simply missing or overlooking around the importance of DEI?
Bernadette Smith:I think a lot of folks misunderstand what it means. That's sort of the first thing I of weaponized um, but what it's really about is making sure that we remember that our world is diverse, you know, and it's increasingly diverse, and we want to be able to seize the potential of that diversity right and essentially capitalize on it, benefit from it. But we don't get there without equity and inclusion right, and so equity and inclusion are sort of the steps that can harness the power of diversity and benefit everyone.
John Neral:Absolutely, and we're certainly seeing some companies stand up and continue to support their DEI initiatives where others are dismantling, letting them go, not putting that kind of focus as they once were. Yeah, um, you were. It was interesting. You were talking about the Superbowl and Jalen Hurts's all female management team and I was like, oh, and what kind of popped up for me around that was. Uh, there was a, a representative I'm not going to say her name, um, but she tweeted out, said you know something to the fact of does anybody get this halftime show? Can we have subtitles? And those comments were all like that's DEI, right? That's one of those kinds of things there. Equity let's talk about equity for a second, because in the workplace, especially for a mid-career professional, somebody who is leading teams or they're leading departments or organizations, what are some of the things, especially by law, but also simply based on awareness, should they be focused around equity?
Bernadette Smith:Yeah, so in terms of creating a more equitable environment for others or leveraging themselves?
John Neral:Let's start with for others first.
Bernadette Smith:Well, I think when we think about equity, let's first define it, which is essentially setting others up for success, or setting people up for success keeping in mind their individual circumstances or their individual backgrounds, right. And so equity can look like opportunities for those who have experienced a lot of systemic oppression. So we've seen, you know, incubator programs and scholarships and sponsorships. Those are all examples of equity. And scholarships and sponsorships, those are all examples of equity. So, specifically for a mid career professional, I think I would lean into mentorship and sponsorship. I think those are sort of the best places to be able to pay it forward to others, especially given the wisdom of your own experience.
John Neral:Hey there. Have you ever been hesitant to like a LinkedIn post about finding a new job because you're fearful of being seen by your employer or colleague? I get it. I see you, my friend. Since you're already listening to this podcast, I want to help you get an even bigger win in your career and to do that, I'm inviting you to join my free email community and subscribe to the Mid-Career GPS newsletter. It's delivered to your inbox twice each week with helpful tips, strategies and resources to help you find that job you love or love the job you have. It's all free and you can subscribe by visiting my website at johnneral. com. Check the show notes or my LinkedIn.
John Neral:For now, let's get back to the episode. I don't even want to say years ago, because I got to catch myself here, because I find myself saying that phrase and I'm like no, we need to keep remembering that, right? So the words that come up for me are representation matters. Right, we see people who are at the table who represent us. They look like us, they are like us and things like that. And one of the things I repeatedly hear from my clients and people in my network who, to characterize them, they are big hearted, heart centric individuals. They don't want to make a mistake, they don't want to screw up, they don't want to offend, and so one of the things that will come up is they'll sometimes get caught with unintentionally making an assumption and now they feel like they have to over-apologize because they didn't mean to do that.
John Neral:Can you talk to us a little bit about whether that's helpful or not in the workplace and what steps people can do to manage their assumptions.
Bernadette Smith:Yeah, this is a great question. I talk about this a lot because we're unconsciously making assumptions about others all the time, about their potential, about their fit, about what we think is happening in their personal life. I mean, we do it all the time, but those assumptions can prevent us from establishing genuine connection, and I think we've gotten ourselves, unfortunately, into this place with cancel culture, where people are so afraid of saying the wrong thing, they're afraid of getting it wrong, and so they tend to stay in their own lane and, because they don't want to accidentally offend someone, they don't say anything. And so really the trick here, especially if you've made a mistaken assumption and you need to apologize, is do not over apologize. First of all, apologize once, keep it really simple and then move on, change the subject and then make sure you get it better next time. But really don't over apologize, because then that puts the person that you've accidentally offended in a position of you know, do they have to then comfort you it?
John Neral:just makes it all the more awkward. Yeah, I could. I could see that playing out in my mind, even from from my experiences. In some way where you feel like you have to overcompensate and now the energy just shifts and it's not good.
Bernadette Smith:Exactly, exactly.
John Neral:And then that becomes a barrier. Us an example before, but can you give us another one? Just in terms of what that might sound like for somebody to give that simple and sincere apology apology.
Bernadette Smith:I'm so sorry. I'm working on this. You know this is this is new to me, but I'm going to get it right and and really some version of that, honestly, whatever's going to be authentic to you, but some version of that and then ultimately change the subject. Listen, I do this with my partner all the time. I did it last night, you know I had to apologize for something. I did it last night, you know I had to apologize for something, but I didn't want to sit in that misery. You know it works in all sorts of scenarios, right? But I think that the bottom line is we have to be sincere, we have to commit to doing better, but no one wants the discomfort to linger.
John Neral:No, thank you for that, bernadette. Something else that you talk about that really resonated for me in prepping for our conversation. You talk about kind curiosity, and I'd love for you to dig a little more deeply with that for our listeners today exactly what is kind curiosity and why should people be doing it?
Bernadette Smith:Yeah, kind curiosity is so important, especially as we have kind of these silos around us. You know, like I said, I think we tend to stay in our lanes a lot of times. Our personal and our professional networks are people who check similar demographic boxes to the ones we check. Works, are people who check similar demographic boxes to the ones we check, and that means that we're not listen, leveraging diversity, we're not expanding our worldview, we're not having access to others' experiences and we're not having as much fun, let's be honest. But the antidote to all of that is kind curiosity, and I have a tool called the ARC method, which stands for Ask, respect, connect.
Bernadette Smith:We always want to ask from a place of kind curiosity. So maybe that starts with sharing a little bit of your own experience first. And we know, for example, in the workplace you might have someone who seems to be struggling, maybe they're missing deadlines, you don't know why. Start with kind curiosity, start with maybe sharing a little bit of your own experience. Hey, you know it's been really strange around here lately, lots of changes. How are you holding up? It's been stressful for me, how's it been for you? Kind curiosity, but then you want to respect what you hear. That's the R, and then C is sort of tie it all together and connect by maybe paraphrasing or validating. So that's the ARC method.
John Neral:So ask, respect connect.
Bernadette Smith:Connect yes.
John Neral:A-R-C and you do a lot of work with sales professionals, particularly using this ARC method correct?
Bernadette Smith:Yeah, I love speaking with folks in sales and client facing roles because you know they they in particular are are interacting with an increasingly diverse client base, right, and so I want to help them build authentic relationships that they can sustain with their increasingly diverse clients. And again, they tend to be they can be a little bit tight because they're afraid of saying the wrong thing. They tend to be they can be a little bit tight because they're afraid of saying the wrong thing. They might feel like they're walking on eggshells. But if they bring the arc method, if they use kind curiosity, they can have more meaningful relationships, more meaningful client relationships.
John Neral:Do you have a success story to share with us about? How, be it either through one of your speaking engagements or one of your corporate relationships, if you will, that kind curiosity or the ARC method were adopted that yielded some great results?
Bernadette Smith:no-transcript. We can also have more psychological safety, and psychological safety is a huge driver of team performance and innovation.
John Neral:Nice, that's good to hear. So, for the people who are listening, they may work in an organization that has changed their DEI policy, yeah, and they may be allies toward a lot of different cultures, communities. Um, what advice would you give them specifically for how they might show up in an organization where, culturally, the organization's beliefs don't entirely align with theirs?
Bernadette Smith:Yeah, I think that that's a struggle that a lot of people are feeling right now. Attention, it's causing a lot of distrust in the workplace distrust of their employer. I think that the important thing to do right now is to focus on our relationships, to focus on building authentic connections, and it's a great opportunity to reach out to people on your team or people within your department or function who maybe you don't know as well, who might be having a hard time through all this. It's a great time to show your own um, show your own wisdom, show your own compassion and and strengthen relationships. Um, I think that's what we need to focus on is our relationships.
John Neral:Yeah, I agree with you on that. It's such a great point because when I think back, especially with the teams that I've led throughout my career, people make judgments, people make comparisons, especially if you're on a team where there's other managers in that same role.
Bernadette Smith:And.
John Neral:I would always say look, if you're on my team, this is how I show up, this is how I lead, this is what I do. Other people do it differently, but this is how we play here and whenever we're in this space, this is how we play, and some people above me were okay with that and some people were like I'm like doesn't matter, my team, my roles, you know, and this is the roles that we create together.
Bernadette Smith:In that regard, yeah, and I'm sure the people on your team loved you for that right.
John Neral:I definitely can say there were. There were a lot of people whom I've had the chance to work with and work alongside of that definitely appreciated that, for for the very simple reason you highlighted earlier, which was about creating that safe space for them.
Bernadette Smith:Yeah, exactly, exactly.
John Neral:Bernadette I, I, you know, maybe your crystal ball's functioning or it's broken right now or whatever. I don't know specifically. But I'd be remissed if I didn't ask you to kind of think a little forward with us for a moment in terms of where this DEI conversation is heading and if we're going to continue to find those good vibes in DEI for those people who are allies and support DEI for what it truly is. What does this look like, moving forward?
Bernadette Smith:Well, you know, I think that if we look at the history of the world, it's always progress and regression, and progress and regression, right. And so, you know, I'm completely of the belief that we ultimately have to keep moving forward and look at how are we loving each other, how are we showing up for each other? And that's what the heart of DEI is all about. It's about being better humans and setting other people up for success, setting ourselves up for greater success, and so who doesn't want that?
Bernadette Smith:But we might have to change the words, we might have to think about how we can do things a little more differently, or measure things differently. Measure the impact, show the impact, communicate it differently, all of that stuff. There's room for improvement, a lot of room for improvement, but ultimately, I think that the work is still going to need to be done, and and so I'm I'm here for it, my team is here for it, and I know a lot of other people are as well. So, even if I'm, even if I'm shouting out on my newsletter firsts or you know things that seem kind of trivial, I will take all the good vibes I can get and share them widely. Nice Now more than ever.
John Neral:Absolutely Thank you for that. Who are the people in this space that you tend to look toward and lean toward as leaders in this space, such as yourself?
Bernadette Smith:So my firm is called Equality Institute but I would say, you know, follow Lily Zhang on LinkedIn. They are a great pragmatic leader. They have amazing thought leadership, so I would say follow them. They just wrote a great article for the Harvard Business Review about sort of the future of DEI that I would encourage folks to check out.
John Neral:Will do. I will find that and make sure that's in the show notes as well. Bernadette, thank you so much for having this conversation with me and with all of us today as we start wrapping up here. Whether it be something you've already shared or something you haven't, what's one piece of advice or suggestion you'd love to give everybody to help them build their mid-career GPS?
Bernadette Smith:Leverage your relationships, reconnect with folks and be a resource for others. People are afraid of asking for help, but asking for help brings people closer together. So don't be afraid to ask people in your world for help, to show them and to show them that you're available. So really leverage your connections, leverage your network by asking for help.
John Neral:That's very sound and much needed advice, so thank you for that. I appreciate it. Bernadette, if people want to connect with you, find you learn more about you. I'm going to turn the mic over to you right now. Please tell us all the great places where people can connect.
Bernadette Smith:You can find more about my speaking business and my firm at BernadetteSmithcom and to get the Five Things newsletter, you can subscribe at FiveThingsDEIcom and check out the podcast Five Things in 15 Minutes, anywhere you listen to podcasts.
John Neral:I will make sure all of that is in the show notes. Bernadette Smith, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you for being a great guest on the Mid-Career GPS podcast.
Bernadette Smith:My pleasure, John. Thanks so much for having me.
John Neral:Absolutely so. My friends, this was a much needed conversation we needed to have today and I thank you for sticking with us and listening to all of this. If there's one big takeaway that I have here, it's really it's Bernadette's tactic about showing up from a place of kind curiosity, you know, being that person, that ally, that support, that leader within your organization and your life, where you can ask respect and connect and use that to build those relationships. Because, as you're building your mid-career GPS, we know time and time again that it is the relationships you build along the way that those people become huge advocates for the work you are doing. And in this job market right now, how you stand out, how you are different, how are you being that light for other people, in addition to the quality of the work you are doing, will absolutely continue to get you noticed. So until next time, my friends, remember this, you will build your mid-career GPS one mile or one step at a time, and how you show up matters Make it a great rest of your day. How you show up matters, make it a great rest of your day.
John Neral:Thank you for listening to the Mid-Career GPS podcast. Make sure to follow on your favorite listening platform and, if you have a moment, I'd love to hear your comments on Apple podcasts. Visit johnnerrellcom for more information about how I can help you build your mid-career GPS or how I can help you and your organization with your next workshop or public speaking event. Don't forget to connect with me on LinkedIn and follow me on social at John Darrell Coaching. I look forward to being back with you next week. Until then, take care and remember how we show up matters. Thank, you.