284: Insights for Mid-Career Leadership Transformation with Jordana Cole

Are you ready to elevate your leadership skills and navigate mid-career transitions with confidence? 

In this episode of The Mid-Career GPS Podcast, I sit down with leadership and talent expert Jordana Cole to uncover the essential leadership qualities that drive success in 2025 and beyond.

Jordana shares her transformational journey—from managing client services teams to leading organizational learning and development—highlighting the power of long-term growth strategies. Whether you’ve recently stepped into a leadership role or are striving to refine your management approach, this episode delivers actionable insights to help you lead with impact.

We discuss:

✅ Why High Performers Struggle in Leadership Roles – The challenges of transitioning from technical expert to effective leader
✅ Leadership Competencies That Matter – What separates great leaders from the rest (backed by Gallup research)
✅ Creating a Thriving Work Environment – Strategies to engage, motivate, and retain top talent
✅ The Power of Stay Interviews – How to assess employee satisfaction and boost retention
✅ Managing Difficult Conversations – Using empathy and transparency to build trust
✅ Recalibrating Leadership Goals – Shifting from fear-based decisions to growth-driven opportunities.

Leadership is more than a title—it’s a mindset. This episode equips mid-career professionals with the tools to foster open dialogue, embrace adaptability, and redefine career success.

Gain expert strategies for leading with confidence, crafting a high-performance team, and achieving long-term career fulfillment.

Connect with Jordana Cole: Website | LinkedIn 

Chapters

• 0:00 The Importance of Great Leadership
• 4:55 Transforming Mid-Career Professionals' Leadership Skills
• 13:52 Cultivating Thriving Leaders
• 27:27 Building Strong Leadership Mindset

Transcript

John Neral: 0:00

It may seem like a badge of honor to have a horrible manager, but come on, you and I both know that a leader can make all the difference as to whether you stay in that organization or go work somewhere else, and if you're leading or aspiring to lead talent, how you lead makes a ton of difference regarding your team's effectiveness. So please, don't be one of those horrible leaders. However, I've often said that it's been my quote unquote bad managers who shaped how I've led, because I never wanted to do that to any of my team members. How you lead is a big part of your mid-career GPS, and today I am joined by Jordana Cole, who ignites behavioral change that doesn't just stick, it spreads. In this episode, jordana and I discuss what makes great leaders in 2025 and why they are so desperately needed, how to clearly define what it means to thrive in your leadership and career, to create true transformational change, how to retain great employees and how to identify what's in your control as you build your mid-career GPS. So let's get started. Hello, my friends, this is the Mid-Career GPS Podcast and I'm your host, John Neral. I help mid-career professionals like you find a job they love, or love the job they have, using my proven four-step formula.

John Neral: 1:40

My guest today is Jordana Cole, and, as a recognized leadership coach, consultant, workshop facilitator and learning and development strategist, jordana empowers leaders to transform behaviors that unlock team potential and drive business results. Her background leading teams in L&D strategy, within nonprofits, higher education, financial services, e-commerce and tech industries. Jordana thrives in bridging the gap between HR and business units, where she draws upon her advanced education in the psychology of well-being. It is her diverse background that brings so much to this conversation, because one of the things Jordana excels at is making magic when she is faced with limited resources, so she can help organizations build scalable, sustainable approaches from scratch. Now, this is a conversation that is relevant and applicable to any leader at any level, but it is especially for you, as a mid-career, mid-level leader who might be looking to level up their career and make a greater impact within your organization, that I want you to pay particular attention to Jordana's tips and information within this episode. So it is my pleasure to introduce you to Jordana Cole. Hey there, jordana. Welcome to the show. It's great to have you here.

Jordana Cole: 3:15

Thanks, john, I'm thrilled to be here.

John Neral: 3:17

Yeah, you and I connected at the end of last year and I wanted you to come on the podcast specifically today to talk a little bit about your leadership journey, but also what leadership specifically looks like for mid-career professionals. But before we get into all that, please share with us what was your mid-career moment.

Jordana Cole: 3:36

Yeah. So my mid-career moment happened about a decade ago. At the time I was leading an account management team, a client services team, and feeling a little burnt out on my role and didn't really understand why. And after some assessments, conversations and reflections I realized that I loved that with the team I managed that more and more of my job was focused on fighting fires instead of starting them within people, as a friend of mine told me later on. And I made the conscious decision to completely move into a different field and, while technically taking a step back from managing a team, it was actually taking a step forward in leadership. So I moved from direct management of a client account team to organizational leadership, moving into enterprise organizational learning and development and leadership development, which I've done for over a decade with different industries, different size companies and really working with teams, leaders across the entire enterprise of a company and helping them grow and bring out more potential in themselves and others.

John Neral: 4:55

So for someone who is hearing this and they're curious about what your client interaction, your day-to-day is like, give us, us the 30,000-foot overview in terms of where your touchpoints are during a given day.

Jordana Cole: 5:09

Every day is different. Exactly, there's a little bit of that. I think. Some of the things that are similar to when I was managing the client success team is that I had stakeholders, I had expectations, I had deliverables and I had meetings.

Jordana Cole: 5:26

What was different is that oftentimes in this type of work, you're a team of one or a super small team, so you are literally putting things out there that impact the entire company, but you're doing it in very scrappy and limited ways.

Jordana Cole: 5:42

So that often means building buy-in, building champions, piloting. So I'm talking to different leaders, understanding their needs, I'm actually selling, but I'm selling ideas and I'm selling ideas internally rather than actually selling products and I'm testing and learning a lot. So one of the things that I learned a lot in this work is that I might have an idea and a goal of what I'm headed for, and instead of building something out beautifully and then rolling it out and getting upset when people aren't adopting it, I'm better served by starting small, piloting it, getting feedback, getting participation and buy-in, and then building on it so that it gets to a point where it's actually going to add value, because I'm working with everybody and everybody is so different that I need to figure out ways that I can create consistency and clarity, while also enabling tailoring customization to different people's unique needs.

John Neral: 6:44

Sure, and certainly we know the kind of work you do is absolutely needed and for I mean, it goes without saying right, because leadership is such a mission and a calling. But one of the things that we really resonated on when we first met and started talking was that there's this arc for certain mid-level, mid-career professionals, where they demonstrate technical expertise, they're extremely proficient, they are celebrated by their organizations and they are then thus anointed to manage people or lead a team in that regard, and to do so, in all honesty, before they are ready or well-equipped. Why do we continue to see this model being implemented and, secondly, what's the right step to change that?

Jordana Cole: 7:47

Yeah, I mean, I think the reason we see it implemented comes from, honestly, the best of intentions. That has not great execution and outcomes. Somebody is so great at what they do that we assume, if we put them in charge of a group of people who do the same thing that they're doing, that they'll be able to translate that and boom, they're going to make all the people underneath them better. And I see that happen in things like sales, for instance, where you have your fantastic salesperson, their top salesperson in the company. Okay, just take what you're doing and teach other people how to do the same thing. But there's a couple of problems with that. One, what makes you a fantastic salesperson is a different skill set than what makes you a great leader. There's been some really fascinating research from Gallup over the past few years, and they have a book called it's the Manager, which indicates that only about 10% of people have the skill set, aptitude, mindset needed to be successful managers. And I guarantee you those are not the 10% that we're promoting, right, or we're promoting a lot more than that. This is both kind of in challenge and in solution is that when people are promoted because what they are doing is working, they assume that that same method will work for everybody. And you know, we each come with our own different strengths, our own different skill sets, our own different motivators, our own different experiences and perspectives. And what works for you, john, isn't necessarily what's going to work for me. So if I try and direct you to do X, y and Z just like how I did it, you're not going to see the outcomes that I did, because we're not the same person and we're both going to be frustrated by it in the interim. So I think there's a couple things in here from a solution standpoint. One is really taking stock of what are the true skills that make somebody a great leader, and not just skills. What are the mindsets, what are the interests, what are the competencies?

Jordana Cole: 9:59

I think there are a lot of organizations out there that might have team competencies or individual contributor competencies, but they haven't thought about that at the leadership competencies or individual contributor competencies, but they haven't thought about that at the leadership level. Or what they have is really, really vague and we often focus on who's not doing it well and trying to fix it, instead of taking a step back and go. Who are some of the best leaders that we have in our organization and by best leaders. They're people who get results not just in outcomes from the business that is an important component of it. They're people who also have high engagement, high retention, high innovation, high collaboration from their team. It's the secret sauce that makes those outcomes happen, and let's figure out what they uniquely bring to the table and use that to really identify those skills, those competencies, those mindsets.

Jordana Cole: 10:49

And when we're assessing people from promotability and particularly towards management, let's look at that and have conversations around those particular things and then let's educate and train people and upskill them in those particular things. So I mean, it does require investment of time and it does require investment of resources. So I think that's one piece. I think the second piece is actually having conversations about why they want to be managers and making sure that they understand the true responsibility and work of management before they actually go into management, rather than just going, oh, I want a title or yeah, you asked me if I wanted to do this, so I feel like I had to say yes, I think that's something that we can do better at.

Jordana Cole: 11:32

And I think the third piece is recognizing that those that we manage are not like ourselves, and the best thing that we can do when we take on leadership roles is seek to understand our people first, have conversations about what motivates them. Have conversations about what demotivates them. What are skills that might be untapped, that they'd like to use more of? What's the best and worst way to give them feedback? What enables them to be at their best?

Jordana Cole: 12:00

What are some things that people might do inadvertently that brings out the worst in them? It's kind of like doing the work upfront to get the cheat sheet that's going to pay off in the long run to help you be successful. But the problem is so often when we move somebody into leadership, we tell them that they have to deliver on the outcome so quickly that we don't give them the time and the space to have the conversations that's going to bring out the real understanding and gold that will enable those outcomes to happen. So I think it's a mindset shift with the people. I think it's a change from the system standpoint in the organization and a change in where we invest time and resources, knowing that it's going to produce outcomes down the line.

John Neral: 12:44

Hey there, let me jump in really quick and ask you something. When was the last time you took a step back and really thought about where your career is headed? If you're feeling stuck, uncertain or ready for the next big move, I've got something to help you. My new journal, 30 Self-Coaching Questions for Mid-Career Professionals, is designed to help you gain clarity, set goals and take action all on your own terms, with powerful prompts and space to reflect. This journal is your personal GPS to navigating the next phase of your career with more confidence and greater clarity. Next phase of your career with more confidence and greater clarity. This journal is filled with some of the same questions I ask my coaching clients, and you can grab a copy of it right now. Head on over to Amazon and search either for my name or 30 self-coaching questions for mid-career professionals, or you can check the show notes for the link. It is time to start building your mid-career GPS, and now it is time for us. The show notes for the link. It is time to start building your mid-career GPS, and now it is time for us to get back to the episode Jordana.

John Neral: 13:52

What you have just described is, especially in terms of the skills, the mindset and the competencies, about recognizing the mindset and the competencies, about recognizing where the individual who is truly successful in that management or leadership role, where they get to thrive and I know that's a huge part of your work. The word thrive is one that I've seen over the last like six to eight months or so, when I people will reach out on LinkedIn and they'll they'll reach out and they'll say, oh, I want a job where I can thrive, or I want to be in an organization that lets their people thrive, and I'll get really curious with them to be like what does that exactly mean? Because it sounds great but in practicality, we've got to really kind of drill down to that concrete piece about what it means to really thrive In your work and in your experience. When you see an organization and its leaders thrive, what does that exactly look like?

Jordana Cole: 14:58

What a great question, john. So I'll say a couple of things about that. Like, so I have. I have a master's degree in the science of well-being, which is the science of thriving, so I could go super academic. They're at their best every day and at their best in a way where they are adding value and and they are feeling valued, which is when we think about the word mattering. That's like the best synthesis of definition, and there's a researcher by the name of Isaac Pilatensky. That's his definition. I love it.

Jordana Cole: 15:44

You know, we thrive when we feel like we are adding value beyond ourselves and where we are feeling valued, we're recognized in a way that's authentic to us, where we're contributing and we're also growing. So you know, we're not just kind of stagnant and baseline, but we actually feel like we're growing and we're continuing to grow and add value day in and day out, and it's being done so in a way that's not at the cost of other things that are important to us, in a way that's not at the cost of other things that are important to us. So I feel like, true, thriving is it's this balance, where you're adding value to the organization and you're feeling valued as a human being, where you can add that value without also sacrificing the other things that are important to you in your life, and that's a very, very hard balance to find, especially in today's day and age, and I think that the question that you just brought up is an important one. That word means different things to different people, so that's my very general definition. However, it takes five minutes to ask somebody what does thriving mean to you?

Jordana Cole: 16:55

And I don't know that. There are many organizations out there, many leaders out there, that are actually having that conversation. You're saying that you want to be in an organization that enables you to thrive. What would that look like for you? What would that mean for you? What would be different for you if that happened? It's a lot easy to action on those things when you're hearing the specifics from somebody than when you're trying to kind of crystal ball what it is they're talking about.

John Neral: 17:20

It's such a great point, because that little pause to ask people to clarify what they mean by that is what really unlocks the ability to build that relationship, because now we have that information about okay, this is what thriving looks like for you. Here's what it looks like here. Let's see where it aligns, let's see where we need to close a gap. But without having that conversation, that magic never happens.

John Neral: 17:48

Yes, yeah when you're looking ahead here at 2025 and we're seeing the ripple effects of what's happened in 2024 in terms of how it's impacting what work is going to look like and whether or not people are making moves, how they are making moves, what it may mean to be a little more organizationally loyal when people haven't always been in the past.

Jordana Cole: 18:20

From a leadership lens Jordana what are the things you see that are most good? Organizations will try and make changes based on what it is that they're learning. But the reason somebody left is not the reason somebody decided to look in the first place. There's something that happens where, you know, suddenly an individual goes from you know, being satisfied in their job and their life, et cetera, and then something shifts and they start to open to opportunities outside of the organization. So the reasons that they're saying they're leaving might not actually be the real thing that you should be solutioning for. They're not the root and, you know, oftentimes we don't get the real answers right.

Jordana Cole: 19:31

People are trying to burn bridges. I think we'd be much more effective and I know that the concept of stay interviews has been around for a long time. But going back to, how are you making your people feel valued when they are there, not only when they are leaving? One of the best ways that you can do that is having regular conversations with the people that you do value, not waiting until they're at risk to like. Beg them to stay because you need them. Letting them know upfront that they are valued. Asking them, you know what. What inspires them to bring their best every day asking them. You know what they need to continue to be at their best. You know what are some things that get in their way of being able to be at their best. So you don't have to ask it in the lens of like, what will take you to keep you to stay? I think there's different ways to ask the question and get to the heart of that.

Jordana Cole: 20:28

And asking questions like that and having regular conversations do two things. One, it gives you insight on you know where there might be things that you're not fulfilling that person that you care about and what they need. It also, though kind of under the surface, shows that person that they are valued. You know, too often our time is stretched as leaders and we wind up spending the majority of our time with people who are underperforming or people who are, you know, squeaky wheel, and that means that we tend to take the people that are really great for granted because you know they're not causing problems, they're doing great things, and then next thing we know that person is gone. So spending that time proactively to show them that they matter and have those conversations really sets a tone from a cultural and leadership standpoint. It could also indirectly influence who's talking to you. Because if people see that you're spending more of your time with your high performers, with their highly valued people, who you want to keep, and you're spending less time with the people who are causing problems, you might subconsciously change the tone with the people who are causing problems. You might subconsciously change the tone of the people who are causing problems. So I think that the ongoing conversation is one of them.

Jordana Cole: 21:43

I think the other piece is being a strong leader for them. You know there's enough research out there that indicates that people leave managers, they don't leave companies, and I think one of the reasons that companies wind up losing really great people is because either that person doesn't have a strong leader or there's been a leadership change where that individual had a really great relationship with their manager and that person has either left or they've brought in somebody else to lead the team and that new person who comes in isn't doing, you know, their due diligence to build that relationship or isn't modeling the same leadership behaviors that person is used to. So you know, even asking that individual like, what does great leadership look like for them? What do they need to feel supported? I think one of the challenges that organizations have is they shy away from these questions because they're afraid it's going to say, well, I want more money and they can't do that, and that's not the reason to shy away.

Jordana Cole: 22:45

A couple things with that One. If you really want loyalty, I think we need to think about how we're incentivizing loyalty. You know, we can't expect people to give more discretionary effort to give more loyalty if we're in a culture where we're barely giving, you know, a cost of living increase or people are scared about their jobs. That's not a culture that breeds a sense of loyalty. So that's a piece of it, and you know. Number two is, I think that there's ways to both reframe the conversation and also be honest in a way that actually builds trust and loyalty rather than eroding it.

Jordana Cole: 23:27

So if you say to an individual, if they say, look, what's important to me is money, you can say to them I wish we were in a position where I could give you, you know, an extra $10,000 a year If we had a budget for it. If I was in a position where I could do that, I would do that instantaneously. We're not. I understand that that's really important to you. What are some other things that I could do that would make you feel valued, and asking that a couple of times until you get to that place. I also think the nature of how you ask the question is important.

Jordana Cole: 24:04

So a lot of people I coach know one of my favorite things to ask is what would make this 5% better? And I specifically use that terminology because I think too often in engagement surveys we ask like how do you like to be recognized? I specifically use that terminology because I think too often in engagement surveys we ask like how do you like to be recognized? What feedback do you have for me? What would make everything better for you?

Jordana Cole: 24:25

And then people ask for things we can't deliver on. We get frustrated, they get frustrated. It creates this vicious cycle. But when you ask something like you know what would make the next year 5% better for you or what would make the next week 5% better for you, because I truly care about you. I care about you being successful. You add so much value. Nine out of 10 times that person is going to respond with something that you can actually act on. That builds trust because you're able to follow through on the commitment and the ask that they had and you're also able to display loyalty and commitment in ways that don't require grandiose things.

John Neral: 25:05

I like how you phrased all that, because what you've done is you've given the people who are listening, especially who have direct reports or they're in positions to have these conversations, some very tactical things that they can offer.

John Neral: 25:22

That, admittedly, especially right now, what we see in this economy, in this market, where money may not be a bargaining chip, that, what else might they be able to leverage? Yes, that, what else might they be able to leverage? Yes. So we're gonna start wrapping up in a moment, but I would be remissed if we didn't take a few moments to talk a little bit about layoffs and hiring freezes, given what's happened last month. So for the listeners, we're recording this on January 22nd, right after there was a big announcement of a federal hiring freeze, and those can be really difficult conversations for managers to have, especially when teams are over-allocated, they're overwhelmed, they might be experiencing some burnout. What can you share with the listeners today, jordana, about being in that kind of role where they have to show up and deliver some difficult information, but also understanding that this may be a temporary and most likely is a temporary circumstance to help them see through to the other side?

Jordana Cole: 26:33

Yeah, yeah, first off, sorry, you're going through that. I think it's the hardest thing that anybody has to do as a leader, and I've been through it myself and I've told leaders who've been through it some for the first time, some multiple times that if it ever gets easier for you, that's probably a good signal that it's time to hang up the leadership, the leadership hat, the leadership coat I don't know what it is and the fact that it's not easy for you shows that you care about the people who work for you. I'd say there are a lot of things in that situation that are outside of your control. So how do you orient to what's in your control? And in that moment, what is in your control is the words you use, the actions that you display. Before you go into those conversations, ask yourself you know what is? What is the mindset that you need to be in? What? What is the mindset that you need to be in? What are you trying to create for an environment in this conversation? An ideal outcome isn't possible in situations like that, so let's recalibrate goals, and that's also something to think about for yourself in times like this. Stop comparing yourself to your ideal On an everyday basis. You might have a scale of a one to five, where five is your best and one is your worst. In days like that, your best might be a two and a half Sure, and that's okay. So let's recalibrate what good looks like in that, and so let's say your mindset. And, john, I'm going to kudos you here.

Jordana Cole: 28:15

Before we started this conversation, you asked me what my intention was for this conversation. I think that's an important thing for leaders to bring in to conversations like this. What is my intention for the conversation with the person? What is my conversation? What is my intention for the conversation with the team? What is my intention for being with myself? And that intention might just be creating a space where that person feels heard, recognizing that I might not be able to do anything about it, where I feel for them, but I just want them to create a safe space where they can let out everything that they're feeling non-judgmentally, and let them be heard. Okay, what do I need to do from a lens of actions? What do I need to do from a lens of words to be able to honor that intention? That's in my control. I can control creating a space. I can't control whether or not that person has a job. I can't control what the future is going to bring, but what I can control is creating a space where they feel heard.

John Neral: 29:14

I thank you for that and that's something which I'm sure you and I have both experienced, where people kind of overlook that and it's so important to offer that. That is absolutely within your toolkit to hold that space to make people feel heard and validated and recognized, and to see what comes after that. But that never happens unless you hold that space. So I'm really glad you talked about that and thank you for sharing that with everybody.

John Neral: 29:44

You're welcome, All right. So here's the question we always kind of wrap up with, which is what advice would you give the listeners today to help them build their mid-career GPS to whatever is next for them in their career?

Jordana Cole: 29:59

Yeah. So I think my advice to them would be go towards something because you're excited for it, versus running away from something that you don't like. Everything is scary, and, you know, every time I've made a change in my career, I've been nervous as heck Right and like I didn't know what was going to work out. I was terrified, but I was also excited. I joke, I have this phrase I'm nervous-sided, and it's because anxiousness and excitement are kind of two sides of the same coin.

Jordana Cole: 30:38

I see too many times people not making a move because they're scared and they allow that fear to overtake them, and that's not to say there are certain times in our lives where, or certain situations where, we can't make changes because there are important things that we need foundationally. I 100% respect that, and I've been there myself. If you have that, though, and you're just afraid and playing kind of the what ifs, you're going to wind up then having to make a change later on, either because it's one that's forced upon you or it's one that you just have no other options, and then you're going to be doing it out of fear. On the other side of things, because you're leaving something you hate or, under last resort, because you're leaving something you hate or, under last resort, jump into the nervous-sided.

Jordana Cole: 31:28

Even if it's in a little bit of small ways, it's a lot better to make a movement because you're looking towards something and you're aiming for something, rather than you're running away from something, and then the last thing that I would say is fewer and fewer people are wanting to go into leadership right now, and I think it's become clearer what a responsibility leadership is. Certainly everything that's happened since COVID and just a lot of what's going on in the world and the weight that people are carrying with them into work. We need great leaders now more than ever before, and while it might mean fewer people are interested in becoming leaders, I do think if you enjoy bringing out the best in people, if you enjoy creating a space where people can grow and succeed and you can set right expectations for them, if the idea of that work feels hard and exciting and you're nervous-sided about it, we need you. So please, no matter what imposter syndrome you've got, go for it, because we need leaders like you.

John Neral: 32:33

We certainly do Absolutely Well, jordana. This has been a wonderful conversation. I thank you. If the listeners want to learn more about you, connect with you, find what's going on in your world, I'm going to turn the mic over to you. Share all the good things where people can connect.

Jordana Cole: 32:48

Thanks, john. Yeah, so a couple of great places to connect with me. You can check out my website, ignitedbyjordanacom. You can connect to set up a call with me. You can email me from there. I've got a whole bunch of different articles and resources you can check out on there as well. I'm super, super active on LinkedIn. I always love connecting with people over LinkedIn, so please connect with me, drop me a message, let me know that you listened to this episode and would love to have those connections too, because I am actually working on a book that I hope will be out by the end of this year helping people ignite their leadership and really set the tone for their day, and bite-size actionable pieces to ignite better performance, engagement and potential in their people and in themselves. So if you enjoyed what you heard today, I hope that you'll follow me, connect with me and stay tuned for that book.

John Neral: 33:45

Well, congrats on the book, and I will make sure all of that information is in the show notes To the listeners. When I asked her, dana, about what her intention was for today's conversation, she said it was all about providing value to you, and you absolutely honored that. Thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you for being a great guest today. Thank you, john.

John Neral: 34:06

All right, my friends, as we wrap up here, here's the one takeaway I want you to have from my conversation with Jordana. It's this you are, without question, a talented, highly skilled, valuable individual. If you are moving into a management or leadership role within your organization, this is your opportunity to pause. Think about what your intention is about being a leader within that organization. What is your mindset about how you want to show up every day? But if you are not caring about the people you're serving in that leadership role, you may want to think of something else. If there's one thing Jordana drove home time and time again, it was about the care that great leaders have for people on their team and helping to ignite and elevate their performance and their value within the organization, because you, as the leader, are seeing them as valued and recognized. And remember that's also something you can take to your leadership as well and push those conversations as you're managing up to as you build your mid-career GPS. So until next time, my friends, remember this you will build your mid-career GPS one mile or one step at a time, and how you show up matters. Make it a great rest of your day.

John Neral: 35:35

Thank you for listening to the Mid-Career GPS Podcast. Make sure to follow on your favorite listening platform and, if you have a moment, I'd love to hear your comments on Apple Podcasts. Visit johnnerrellcom for more information about how I can help you build your mid-career GPS or how I can help you and your organization with your next workshop or public speaking event. Don't forget to connect with me on LinkedIn and follow me on social at John Nerrell Coaching. I look forward to being back with you next week. Until then, take care and remember how we show up matters. Thank you.