The Mid-Career GPS Podcast
How will you figure out what is next for you and your career? Building a Mid-Career GPS to create that next promotion, finding a new job, building your network, and crushing your next interview are just some topics we cover on The Mid-Career GPS Podcast.
John Neral had a mid-career moment that changed his path and direction. Building a Mid-Career GPS helped guide him to create what was next for his career. Now, he’s here to help you do the same. Join him and his guests as they share their stories, strategies, and tips to help you create whatever is next so you can find a job you love or love the job you have.
The Mid-Career GPS Podcast
269: You Don't Have to Love Your Career with Dr. Joy Zhao
Discover the transformative journey of Dr. Joy Zhao, a trailblazer in the world of data science who turned personal career setbacks into a narrative of resilience and purpose. Dr. Zhao candidly shares her evolution from facing unemployment to leading top-tier teams, revealing the pivotal stages of viewing work merely as a job to embracing it as a fulfilling career. Her story offers inspiration and practical insights for mid-career professionals eager to redefine their career paths with meaning and satisfaction.
Think of your day-to-day job as more than a routine; imagine it as a calling that fuels your passion and commitment. We delve into how inner work can revolutionize your professional satisfaction, bringing a newfound energy to your career. Listen as we unpack the small yet significant actions like speaking up and aligning your ambitions with your actions, steering you towards a career that resonates with your true purpose. Through personal stories and expert insights, we aim to empower you to articulate and pursue what excites you in the workplace.
For those navigating the complexities of leadership and career advancement, we explore how shifting perspectives can enhance your professional relationships. Learn how to embrace feedback and recognize the gaps hindering your progression. With guidance on building Your Mid-Career GPS, you'll gain tools to make a lasting impact and presence in your field.
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Not every mid-career professional is passionate about their career, and that's okay. As we navigate our career journeys, we'll experience all of the ups and downs, highs and lows more than once. Today, I am joined by Dr Joy Z, who will help you define the true purpose of your work and help you shift perspectives as you navigate your mid-career GPS through various career and leadership challenges. Let's get started. Hello my friends, this is the Mid-Career GPS Podcast and I'm your host, john Nerrell. I help mid-career professionals like you find a job they love, or love the job they have, using my proven four-step formula. I've known today's guest for a few years because she and I have both served as coaches for NextUp's Rising Stars program. I respect and admire her work and I want you to meet her.
John Neral:Coach Joy Z, an MD, phd and ICF PCC certified executive coach, has charted her remarkable career journey from an immigrant to a two-times Fortune 100 data science AI executive, overcoming fear and doubt along the way. Not only has she developed hundreds of leaders and impacted thousands through her executive coaching, she has also recently made a significant leap. Driven by a profound calling. She courageously left behind a high-profile and well-paid executive role to devote herself to empowering Asian women leaders. With her guidance, you will learn how to show up with more confidence and courage, fulfilling your life's purpose with abundance and joy. So it is my pleasure to introduce you to Dr Joy Jha. Dr Joy Jha, welcome to the Mid-Career GPS podcast. It's great to have you here.
Dr. Joy Zhao:Thank you, john, it's my pleasure to be here.
John Neral:So, Joy, I shared a little bit in the intro that you and I have known each other through NextUp's Rising Stars program, where we both have served as coaches before with them, and so having an opportunity to bring you on and talk about your career path and the people you help has definitely been on my list, so I'm glad we get to do this today. Joy, as we get started, I'd love for you to share with everybody what was your mid-career moment.
Dr. Joy Zhao:I would say thank you for the question, john. That really made me think. I would go back a couple of years ago and I realized what's the true purpose of the work. And for me, in my mind, there are four different ways of thinking about work. The first one it's a job, and there's nothing wrong with that. You could put time and energy, you get work done and you get paid. It's an exchange, right. And, again, there's nothing wrong with that. We all maybe most of us start our work as looking at it as a job. Well, there is more Right.
Dr. Joy Zhao:And the second thing, the second way I think work is it could be your career. You know, john, your, your podcast is a career GPS. It's really you're doing all the wonderful things to help people with their career. And career for me is you see a long-term for you. You see a future. You have expectation of what this work is going to bring you to, or bring something to you. So this is like there is more than the job. It's a career for you and you're very hopeful when you think about it. Does that make sense for you?
John Neral:It makes sense. No, absolutely. You talk about the whole purpose of job and career. I just want to take it back a little bit of a second, though. How did you get to understand and we still have to talk about the other two pieces as well, but how did you come to this realization that, when you talk about the true purpose of work, that they're in these definitive buckets?
Dr. Joy Zhao:Absolutely. That actually came to me at the time I was going through my own transformation. You know it was almost my main point of the career. You know, after I went through jobless twice in America, reset my life, reset my career in America, then they start a job that I was searching. I went to the university to do the wet lab. Then I switched myself to doing a data analysis at a research institute. After that I went to Chase and to lead a data mining team and after that I went to Nationwide Insurance and to lead a data science team. So there's a lot of things happened during my transformation, particularly after a big career setback. And then I went through it and everything became different to me because I transformed myself. And that's where, like wow, looking back, looking forward, looking around, and I have a different way to see the work.
John Neral:When you were going through this part in your career that you describe as this piece of transformation, what were some of the things that were going on for you, particularly what you were thinking about or considering that helped you navigate toward, ultimately, what was going to be next?
Dr. Joy Zhao:That's a great question, you know. Maybe I'll finish the other two stages because that's really relevant.
John Neral:Yeah, so let's, let's go there, right? So you've talked about job you've talked about career, so what's the third true purpose of work?
Dr. Joy Zhao:The third one is the work is your passion. When you come to this work that you're having, you love it, you love what you do, you enjoy the people you're working with and you start, you know, looking forward to coming to work and you might even ask for things that you're not doing, like, hey, I really love doing that. You know, working with people and to get to work on things and you find that level, the deeper level of satisfaction, and even go ahead.
John Neral:No, I was going to say so you. So you, you move from this place of I have a job, I have a career. Now I have a passion, so we're playing at a whole different level in terms of our work life. Right, and we hear people a lot of times and they'll say, oh, I'm very passionate about this, or I'm very passionate about that, this, or I'm very passionate about that. You're defining it in a much deeper way, am I correct?
Dr. Joy Zhao:I think so. That's how it led to the fourth way, because you know you keep thinking like what's more there? I'm a Christian, so a lot of people know me. They know I'm a Christian and I also felt the calling. You know the word can be. The calling is that's where you're supposed to be at that time and that's what you're supposed to do, and the people around you are who are supposed to be with you at this time and you're fulfilling a higher purpose and in your connection you're feeling, you're connected to the higher power. For me it's god. For other people they might have their own higher power and that sense of transcendence, or the even deeper level, or you can say, even higher level.
John Neral:it goes both ways sure time.
Dr. Joy Zhao:This higher purpose bring the the deeper level of the satisfaction the happiness and you feel like you have unlimited energy.
John Neral:when you feel that way, can a mid-career professional Joy in your expertise and experience? Can they live where they're getting up every day and they're simply going to their job and still be satisfied in what they're doing?
Dr. Joy Zhao:Generally speaking, I think we can Okay. However, it does not happen easily. It won't feel like snap your finger, the world changed. That's the magic we all want to have right. However, if we are willing to, if we wanted to, if we're committed to, we can. That takes a lot of inner work. That's why what we do, what we do right, John, we're doing coaching and we're supporting people to do their inner work.
John Neral:Yeah, and I know for the people who are listening, especially those who are in a period of job or career transition, that whole idea about finding their passion or finding their calling may seem like a huge lift initially. Right. It's especially for those people who are, let's say, currently looking for work or they are unemployed, that getting to a place where they're like, okay, I've got the job, I'm doing work I like, can I move through these other true purposes of work and get to a place where I'm even more fulfilled or more satisfied, can that happen?
Dr. Joy Zhao:I think we can and I did that. A lot of people, a lot of other people we supported, they did that. Most of the time, I think we can. It's how much people are waiting to do the work right? Um, in my way, I think there are smaller things we could do, right. You know, for example, how do we live our life, how do we show up at work, and sometimes we're waiting for that great purpose to dawn on us.
Dr. Joy Zhao:I do think a lot of time is the purpose might be revealed to us, the passion might be revealed to us when we are doing things big or small, when we're taking the actions scary or peaceful, small, when we're taking the actions scary or peaceful. So that's how I often say you know, when I was working at the corporate or the client, I'm familiar and sometimes I would say you know, there are three things you could do every day. You show up, you speak up, you step up. There are many no-transcript words. Sometimes it's listening, it's how you understand others, it's how you use words as well, how you articulate, how you do the storytelling. Those are all the important things, right?
John Neral:Yeah, and what I like about this part of the conversation, joy, is that you're giving more context to what being passionate is right.
John Neral:So a lot of times I will have people reach out to me or I'll start working with a new client and we'll start doing some storytelling or interview prep and I was like, okay, how do you answer the tell me about yourself question? And a lot of times people will say, oh well, how do you answer the tell me about yourself question? And a lot of times people will say, oh well, I'm really passionate about this. And it triggers so much inside of me where, like I, I almost get to like a visceral reaction where I've just like ugh, right, because somebody told us along the way that if we say we're passionate, everybody understands what that means and we don't, right.
John Neral:And so when I was hiring talent and someone would come in and say, oh, I'm really passionate about educating children, or I'm passionate about leadership, or I'm passionate about assessment, but okay, what does that mean? Like, tell me why. And the way that you've positioned this in terms of this true purpose of work, where we have a job, a career, a passion and a calling I hope for everybody. Listening starts kind of seeing where the passion is far more than the career. It is of interest and value to what you get to bring. It is also your responsibility to act on it and communicate it so people understand what that means a hundred percent.
Dr. Joy Zhao:True, you know that it's really you're. It really resonated with me deeply because a lot of time it's really easy to say but do we do? Do we take actions that align with our words? Right, we got to do the small things and we got to take the tiny steps. We got to do a lot of, you know, seemingly unimpactful. However, the enough of small steps coming together, it will make a big impact.
John Neral:Hey there. Have you ever been hesitant to like a LinkedIn post about finding a new job because you're fearful of being seen by your employer or colleague? I get it. I see you, my friend. Since you're already listening to this podcast, I want to help you get an even bigger win in your career and to do that, I'm inviting you to join my free email community and subscribe to the Mid-Career GPS newsletter. It's delivered to your inbox twice each week with helpful tips, strategies and resources to help you find that job you love or love the job you have. It's all free and you can subscribe by visiting my website at https://johnneral. com. Check the show notes or my LinkedIn. For now, let's get back to the episode. So Joy, you are known as a leader's leader. Okay, you coach a lot of executives, particularly Asian women, and you help them as they navigate their career and everything. Can you tell us how you help shift a leader's perspective when they are always trying to fix everything themselves?
Dr. Joy Zhao:selves. What an awesome question, john. You know my main. I have a lot of clients that they are Asian women. However, I realize you know those are the universal rules applied to a lot of people and it's in fact, you know, in my heart I'm closer to Adrian Weaving because I am one of them what I have observed in my years, either at a corporate or as a coach I realize there are three. You know three is a magic number for me.
Dr. Joy Zhao:There are kind of three stages we all go through to really transform ourselves and maybe have these choices, have the freedom or choices to actually see the world with the perspective and I love how you use the word perspective. That's how I often say that as well as well, because we are what we think. Our perspective is very critical how we see ourselves, how we see other people, how we see the world, how we see all this depend, you know, that will decide how much we understand understand ourselves, understand others and understand the world. That will lead to possibly acceptance. We can accept ourselves, accept other people or accept, you know, what's happening in the world as part of the fact, and we ultimately have more peace. That will give us a lot of energy to actually go forward and I would say maybe thinking about three different stages and sometimes I see that and people will laugh. It's okay if you're you know if our audience is laughing when, when you're hearing that. But one is your willingness and open your eyes to see. That's a first step, a lot of time.
John Neral:So, joy, I'm wondering if you can play with me on this for a second, because I'd love to take an example and walk the listeners through these three keys that you have for shifting perspective. These three keys that you have for shifting perspective and so, as I understand from you, they are opening, being open to see, seeing clearly and seeing through.
Dr. Joy Zhao:Yes.
John Neral:So, rather than put you on the too much on the spot here, is there a particular example you want to share with us about guiding a leader through, or do you want me to give you one?
Dr. Joy Zhao:Well, I'd love your example, John. Let's do that.
John Neral:See, joy, this is the fun part about interviewing somebody you've had a chance to work with and know it's like I normally wouldn't do this to somebody. But I'm like, ah, we can play right, we can do this. Okay, all right, so let's set the stage. Okay, so we're talking about a mid-level, mid-career professional who is a senior manager and they really, really want to get promoted to director. Okay, they've been told that they're quote unquote doing all the right things, but they're just not there yet. Okay, so one of the pieces of feedback that this particular senior manager has received is that their relationship with their team is very transactional. Is the project delivered on time? Why is the project over budget? Everything is very quick, short, to the point. Give me the data, give me the facts. There's not that there needs to be a lot of warm and fuzzy, but the team doesn't feel connected to them.
Dr. Joy Zhao:No wonder.
John Neral:Okay, Right, All right. So if you were working with them and you were helping them shift their perspective right so they could build better connection and relationships with their team, walk us through those three shifting perspectives, starting with being open to see.
Dr. Joy Zhao:Absolutely. I would start with asking this person, like you know, what are you feeling about your team, your relationship with your team and the? These sounds like a stacking questions in the real scenario. We will sure, yeah, by one right, but now I think we'll do it at that higher level. I think I'll be interested to hear this person, like you know, how are you feeling about all this? I won't be surprised if this person is a little frustrated, unhappy or maybe having judgmental feelings about people, right and because sounds like we wanted to hear the answer from them directly.
Dr. Joy Zhao:But just hearing the story from you sounds like this transitional is how he is thinking about his promotion as well. And we all know promotion is not a transactional either. It's not like you're doing one, two, three, 10 things and the quantity you fit, you check the boxes and you will be promoted. It doesn't work that way. Based on my own experiences, the promotion is when you're ready for the next level, you have ability to lead a bigger team and you have strategic thinking, you have relationship build, that you are ready to step into the next role, but sounds like this leader might even have trouble to perform his current role. So to answer your question. I wanted to start asking questions and understand how much does he know about himself and the people around him and the situation he's in?
John Neral:Does that help? It does. It does right. And so, for the listeners out there, when Joy and I talk about we don't want to stack questions, it means you ask more than one question at a time, right, and this is something else too that's going on in interviews. Just as an aside, I'm hearing this from clients as well. They'll be asked a question and it'll be two or three questions at once. It can be really hard for you as the job candidate to make sure you're hitting all those questions. So there are some strategies to do, one simply being write down those questions so you know what to answer. But normally when we ask questions, we want to ask one question at a time. Ok, so, joy, I love that right. So you're opening up their perspective. You're asking these questions to get really curious about their interactions, their trust, where they are in terms of their confidence and competence in their role. When you move them to see the next perspective, which is about seeing clearly what do you want to have happen there?
Dr. Joy Zhao:In order for this person, or any other person, to move forward, they got to have the acceptance of where they are, because what they think of themselves in their mind is not aligned with what other people perceive about him. So there is a gap there. There got to be alignment whenever he could have the ability to see, like, oh, now I understand, now I understand why I have all this feedback and now I understand what's real happening. Or, for you know, to say it bluntly, what's wrong with the situation, what's wrong with me that I could change. Otherwise, the denial of the situation, the denial of the feedback or even sometimes defensive, of you know what other people are giving them the feedback they won't be able to unstuck or move forward or move out of the stage that they are.
John Neral:Right, yeah, and so after you've helped them do that and certainly this isn't a snap of the fingers, and this happens over multiple coaching sessions and stuff yeah, what does seeing through that situation look like?
Dr. Joy Zhao:So seeing after they can see, you know they accept like, oh, this is what's happening, I did not realize. When they realize they open to see, then you know we can teach them different tactics to see it objectively. Right, we could, for example, you know, what do you think your team member would feel when you say this and what do you think your boss would feel? Or you know, think if you do this and that. So this exchange of the view right, you know you wear other people's shoes or whatever you say. Help them to see different ways that shift their perspective gradually, like, oh, no wonder they react that way.
Dr. Joy Zhao:Right, you know all our thoughts, emotions and actions. They are all connected and those are the things we could support them to see it objectively and see it through. What look like. Well, you know when they react that, what do you think their motivations, their intentions or their feelings would be? So that will be looking at the surface and understanding the thinking, emotions behind it. I think that seeing it through is really the insight of the wisdom will come from.
John Neral:And I like how you phrase that too, because there's so much clarity at that stage. The leader then knows how they want to navigate that situation, because they are able to objectively see all of the different perspectives around them and in a lot of ways, Joy based on our work too, it's helping them get out of their own way.
Dr. Joy Zhao:Absolutely. It's beautifully said. And if I could add one more comment, as they develop their objective view and they gain the deeper understanding of themselves and others, that compassion and caring will come out more of them. And guess what? It makes it easier for them to actually connect with other people and building their trust, and that all naturally, you know happening when we see outside, we'll be like, oh, this person changed.
John Neral:And you know, we see the stronger leadership and he leads better Right someone who has navigated through a lot of different environments and industries and companies and certainly understands the power and benefit of coaching. What advice would you give to a mid-career professional who's listening, who really wants to hire a coach, but either their company may not provide that kind of support for them or they're not sure they can afford one on their own. What's the biggest benefit you see from leadership coaching that helps people show up differently.
Dr. Joy Zhao:I would say you know it's always worth it. You know your time, your energy and maybe even the money you invested in yourselves. It doesn't only change your career. I want to say that responsibly, that it changes everything about you, because when you change, everything else changes for you and the job, the colleagues, the team and maybe the positions and salary. But also remember, you know, work and job is only part of your life and there is a bigger scheme of your life.
Dr. Joy Zhao:When you're spending, you know, when you're waiting to invest in yourself, your life changes too. Relationship with your loved ones, you know, for me, my relationship with my husband, my kids and even my mother, it all changed. It all changed. I mean those are priceless. So every time, I always say you know to people, anytime you think you are in your own way, you want it to be a better version of yourself, invest in yourselves. You know, hiring a coach, working with a coach, that will be the best, because coaches are trained to support people to move forward, to instruct you to move forward, to un-stack you to move forward. If not, you know, anytime, reading the books and listening to the maybe you know the podcast like yours, make Career GPS, and I'm sure everybody will get benefited from it.
John Neral:Yeah.
Dr. Joy Zhao:Back to that willingness to do the inner work and willingness to change. That's really the key.
John Neral:Yeah, so thank you for that. It's always nice when they get to hear from somebody else about that too, so thank you. So, joy, as we think about everybody who's been listening to this conversation, what advice would you give for them to help them build their mid-career GPS today?
Dr. Joy Zhao:give for them, to help them build their mid-career GPS today? Absolutely. I probably will have three advice. First one we already mentioned right the daily actions. No matter how big your purpose and how many goals you have, long-term and short-term, it all distilled into the daily actions Show up, speak up and step up. That's really the key. That's number one. Two really understand who you are. Understand what you're capable. Don't let other people define you.
Dr. Joy Zhao:We won't have time to get to it, but I learned a lot of lessons from my life that you got to believe in yourself and what you want, what you're capable of, and then you know, make an effort to make it happen. So that's, believe in yourself and build yourself. Sometimes people out of the love they say the things to you but it may not useful. It may not be useful for you and the one I really want everybody to hear out loud that build partnerships, the partnerships that create a win-win situation or even win-win-win solutions. The more wins the better. I deeply believe the world is an abundant place. There are so many opportunities for all of us. You know, at home, at work, in the community, you can always build partnerships and work with others and be the blessing of others.
John Neral:Well said, my friend, well said, so Joy. If people want to find you, connect with you, learn from you, I'm going to turn the mic over to you. Please tell us all the great places where people can find you.
Dr. Joy Zhao:Absolutely so. I actually have the LinkedIn profile. I think you know, being 15 years in the professional world, linkedin is probably the main place that you can see a lot of my activities. So I will provide the link and find a way and draw. Hopefully you can find the links, you know, after the podcast. I also have my email. You can always email me, joy at joycoachingorg, or you can check out my website at joycoachingorg my website at joycoachingorg. I will do my best to update the website.
John Neral:Got it. So I'm laughing, because this is the part where I'm just going to tell people what's going on. So my mouse died and I can't scroll up on the document now to remember how to spell your last name, because I get the vowel and the consonant mixed up. So please tell our listeners how you spell your last name so they can find you on LinkedIn as well.
Dr. Joy Zhao:Absolutely my last name, Zhao. That's a Chinese name spelled as a Z, as in zebra, H-A-O.
John Neral:Got it Okay, so Z-H-A-O. I'll make sure we link up to all of that in the show notes and of course, you and I are connected on LinkedIn as well. But, dr Joy Jha, thank you so very much for being a wonderful guest on the Mid-Career GPS podcast.
Dr. Joy Zhao:Thank you for having me. I have so much fun.
John Neral:Jha. Thank you, I did too, absolutely so. My friends, as we wrap up today, here's a big takeaway that I have that I want to share with you. Joy listed out four true purposes of work for us. She talked about us having a job, having a career, having a passion and having a calling. You can be at any one of those four stages right now. Every single one of them is going to serve you. And if you have a job, don't beat yourself up for not having a calling. You will get there right. And if you are, you know you're at the career stage and you're like I'm not really sure I'm more passionate about what I'm doing. You will figure that out.
John Neral:But wherever you are, own what your purpose is for work and, to coin another one of Joy's phrases, as you think about going through each day, make sure you show up, you speak up and you step up. So I hope you found today's conversation helpful. If you found today's conversation helpful, you could really help Joy and me out. Share this episode with somebody you know. Just capture the link, send it to them in a text message or a LinkedIn message. Share this conversation with them. It certainly helps spread the news and the information about this podcast and about joy as well.
John Neral:So until next time, my friends, remember this you will build your mid-career GPS one mile or one step at a time, and how you show up matters Make it a great rest of your day, and how you show up matters Make it a great rest of your day. Thank you for listening to the Mid-Career GPS Podcast. Make sure to follow on your favorite listening platform and, if you have a moment, I'd love to hear your comments on Apple Podcasts. Visit johnnarrellcom for more information about how I can help you build your mid-career GPS, or how I can help you and your organization-career GPS, or how I can help you and your organization with your next workshop or public speaking event. Don't forget to connect with me on LinkedIn and follow me on social at John Darrell Coaching. I look forward to being back with you next week. Until then, take care and remember how we show up matters. Thank you.