265: Strategies for Handling Office Politics with Niven Postma

What’s your opinion on office politics? Perhaps you try to avoid them. Maybe you feel confident navigating them, or better yet, you say you can handle them when you have to but would prefer to avoid them altogether. 

In this episode, I’m joined by Niven Postma, an advisor to global executive teams, lecturer, keynote speaker, and author. She’s joining me today to help you reframe your thoughts, opinions, and actions about office politics, why you should pay more attention to office politics, and how you can use them to benefit your teams and your professional advancement. 

From her eye-opening experience of being fired from an executive role, Niven illustrates why political savvy is non-negotiable in today's workplace. Her book, "If You Don't Do Politics, Politics Will Do You," serves as a guide to navigating these often tricky waters with integrity and effectiveness.

This is a conversation you don’t want to miss!

Connect with Niven Postma
Website | LinkedIn | Email Niven - change@nivenpostma.com 

Chapters

• 0:00 Navigating Office Politics for Career Success
• 13:16 Navigating Organizational Politics With Mindfulness
• 22:05 Navigating Office Politics With Integrity
• 33:54 Building Mid-Career GPS Through Podcasts

Transcript

John Neral: 0:00

What's your opinion on office politics? Perhaps you try to avoid them, maybe you feel confident navigating them or, better yet, you say you can handle them when you have to, but would prefer to avoid them altogether. In this episode, I'm joined by Niven Pasma, an advisor to global executive teams, lecturer, keynote speaker and author. Advisor to global executive teams lecturer, keynote speaker and author. She's joining me today to help you reframe your thoughts, opinions and actions about office politics and why you should not only be paying more attention to office politics, but how you can use them to benefit your teams and your professional advancement. This is a conversation you don't want to miss. Let's get started. Hello, my friends, this is the Mid-Career GPS Podcast and I'm your host, john Nerrell. I help mid-career professionals like you find a job they love, or love the job they have, using my proven four-step formula. Before I introduce today's guest, there is one quote from our conversation I want you to keep top of mind as you listen to this episode. Work does not speak. People speak. If you're not advocating for yourself and your career, you are missing an opportunity, and Niven will share ways to help you do that in this episode.

John Neral: 1:34

Niven Postma has held various executive and leadership roles, including the head of leadership and culture for the Standard Bank Group, the largest bank by assets in Africa. She's been the head of leadership and culture for the Standard Bank Group, the largest bank by assets in Africa. She's been the head of external strategy at the South African Reserve Bank, as well as leading all leadership development programs across the central bank. She's been the chief executive officer of Nurturing Orphans of AIDS for Humanity, as well as the Chief Executive Officer of the Businesswomen's Association, the largest association of business and professional women in the country. Niven now works with global executive teams to build what she calls whole system leadership, and so doing fundamentally transforms how they work together and what they can achieve.

John Neral: 2:24

Niven's a part-time and guest lecturer at Cambridge and Stanford Universities, fundamentally transforms how they work together and what they can achieve. Niven is a part-time and guest lecturer at Cambridge and Stanford universities, a contributor to Harvard Business Review and Inc Africa, and the author of the book If You Don't Do Politics, Politics Will Do You: A Guide to Navigating Office Politics Ethically and Successfully. She's currently pursuing her PhD in organizational behavior and her thesis question Are Organizational Politics Different for Women will form the basis for her second book. She lives in Johannesburg and enjoys being married, reading, traveling and slowly attempting to learn to play bridge. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Niven Pasma. Niven, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to have our conversation today.

Niven Postma: 3:15

Thanks Me too, John.

John Neral: 3:16

Yeah, so we had a great chat before we got started here today and everything. But you have such a fascinating career walk and background. I shared a little bit about that in the introduction, but would you please tell our listeners today what was your mid-career moment and why that's so important to you?

Niven Postma: 3:37

Well, it's simple I was fired. I was fired from a very senior, very executive position, was fired from a very senior, very executive position. I was too stupid and naive to realize that I'd been fired. I had, I thought, been let go with a very generous severance package. And I remember phoning my partner, walking out of the building, saying I've just been retrenched, which is what we call being let go in South Africa. And it took a few days for my partner to get me to acknowledge the truth that I had not been retrenched. I had in fact been fired very graciously, very professionally. But that is actually what had happened and it was quite a wake up call in quite a manner of ways.

John Neral: 4:18

What was the reckoning? To realize that your understanding or perception of what happened wasn't what changed.

Niven Postma: 4:31

I think it's that lovely quote from James Baldwin who, incidentally, I think was born 100 years ago this year where he said not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced. And I really had to face that. Despite immense success in my career I mean, my first executive position was when I was 29, and all manner of achievements of which I was justifiably proud and still am. In fact, I had a huge blind spot in my skills, in my repertoire, in my understanding, and that was really around the political skills you need. I needed to be effective at work. I mean, I had the technical skills, I had the reputation.

Niven Postma: 5:17

I hadn't looked for a role since my first role that all come to me and been offered to me, but when it came to navigating the complexities, the realities of large organizations, your technical skills will only take you so far, your reputation will only take you so far. The rest is about your political skills. And frankly, I didn't have those and I didn't have any interest in having those, which is even worse. So I didn't have the skills, that's for sure. But I didn't even any interest in having those, which is even worse. So I didn't have the skills, that's for sure. But I didn't even have the will. In fact, I wore it as a badge of honor that I avoided politics like the plague. I'm just one of those people who doesn't do them, and, rather than seeing that as a huge gap in my skills, I saw that as something to be proud of.

John Neral: 6:02

I saw that as something to be proud of, and thus we get to the crux of our conversation, because for the people who listen to this show, niven, they are big-hearted, people-centric, mid-level, mid-career leaders and professionals who often shy from, shy away from or, like you at that point in time in your career, have that badge of honor about not wanting to do anything with office politics or organizational politics. Your book is called If you Don't Do Politics, politics Will Do you, and we're going to dive into some of that. Can you define for us, please, what is office politics?

Niven Postma: 6:50

Yes, I mean, I think that's the really important point, because most people have this aversion and allergy because they don't. I didn't understand what I was actually talking about, and so the definition that I like and that I use it's about the informal, unofficial uses of influence and power and relationships to get things done, to sell ideas, to achieve objectives, and these informal unofficial uses often happen behind the scenes. They're certainly not written down anywhere. They're not something that are in your KPIs. They're not in written down anywhere. They're not something that are in your KPIs. They're not in your job description.

Niven Postma: 7:32

In fact, I talk about them inhabiting the white spaces between the words on your job description, and often people will hear informal and unofficial and their mind will immediately go to well, if it's informal and unofficial and therefore unsanctioned, it's unfair, hypocritical and secretive. Well, yes, it can be all of those things. It can be also hugely destructive and toxic and Machiavellian, but it can also be constructive, it can be ethical, it can be something that you benefit from rather than something that's just done to you. And so when I talk about politics, I say look, all organizations have got two sides to them, right?

Niven Postma: 8:07

Of course there's the formal side and you see that in the standard operating procedures and the organograms, in all manner of things, and the formal matters. The formal is real, but just as important and just as real, but not codified or taught anywhere, is the informal. And that's the space of the political. And, frankly, if you're only focusing on the formal, what you think you're there to do, what you're told to do, what you take at face value, how things are written down, and you ignore the informal, well, essentially it's like you're playing tennis on half the court, football on half the field, because all organizations, all people, all families, we've got the formal, we've got the informal if someone's been with their organization for a number of years and they're listening to this conversation and they're going.

John Neral: 9:00

Okay, I'm not really good at navigating my organizational culture and politics, but if I want to advance my career, increase my visibility, get the bonus, get promotion, get promoted, what would be some strategies you could offer them to start navigating this political landscape differently and more effectively than what they're? Doing right now.

Niven Postma: 9:30

Well, there are a number of things, and I think the first thing would be to amplify what you're just saying here, john, around they're wanting to do these things, things, for all the reasons that you mentioned. To also just flag to people that getting politically skilled is not just for their own benefits. I mean, there's interesting research that I mentioned in my PhD around people who are better at politics are less stressed, they're more engaged, and I mean it actually makes sense, right? Because instead of tearing your hair out about something that's never going to change, people who are politically skilled have recognized the inevitability, they've rolled up their sleeves and they've gotten good at it. So it has all manner of benefits, not just for you, though, also for your team. And so managers who are more politically skilled have more effective and engaged teams, because those managers are navigating the landscape for their teams to be effective in. And so, even if there's still a little bit of reticence, because it feels like me, me, me understand that this is also for your team and your stakeholders, your being effective in this space, and it benefits them.

Niven Postma: 10:33

And then I think there's really three things. The one and the first is an awareness, so an understanding of what politics are and what they're not and what they can be. You know, the kind of conversation that we're having now can be enormously illuminating for people. It's just I never understood that, I never knew that. So that awareness of the realm of possibilities, I think, is not insignificant, and hopefully that awareness has been sparked and will be stoked after this podcast. Then I think it's about assessment Assessing yourself, assessing the context, assessing the environment.

Niven Postma: 11:12

And on my website, people can go and download my workbook for free and they can just work through a whole series of questions, a whole series of exercises about trying to understand themselves, trying to understand themselves in their context and their context better.

Niven Postma: 11:28

And then the last thing and it's also the last exercise in the workbook is around political action. Well, okay, so now I get it and I have a sense of where I am relative to where I want to be in the situation I find myself. Now what am I going to do about it? And that's about taking the political strategy that you've developed and actually doing something about it, actually building the kinds of relationships that you need, not just the ones that you enjoy. Building the kinds of networks that are going to help you and your team, not just the ones that are narcissistic and lazy and so on and so forth, and recognizing that political skill, like all skills, is something that you will continuously need to develop and as the contexts change and as your aspirations change, so your strategies need to change and you may need to bring on board new skills. You may need to let go of ones that no longer serve you, but this is an ongoing skill for the rest of your career.

John Neral: 12:25

Absolutely Sure. And what do you say to people who are in workplace situations where they don't believe that they're as visible as they could be, they're not recognized as much as other people and they've identified someone within the organization who is well-liked, or he or she are always in the room or they've got an in that this particular person doesn't have. What would you say to somebody who's looking at their situation with that lens?

Niven Postma: 13:08

Again, I think, a few things. The first is to not roll your eyes at the person who's getting it right and be contemptuous of them. I had a young woman say to me years ago how frustrated she was. She was in a similar situation. Look, she was quite new at work, not mid-career, but she'd been brought in as part of a graduate program. And a friend of hers from university, also a chartered accountant, was precisely the kind of person that you mentioned.

Niven Postma: 13:34

People in the department, outside of the department knew his name, giving him all kinds of opportunities. And so she asked him the one day how come you are, mr Going Places, when I know that technically I'm a better chartered accountant than you are? I helped you with your exams and I got higher marks. And he said to her well, it's very simple, I just let make sure that my boss knows what I'm doing and that my boss's boss knows what I'm doing. So I listened to her tell me this story and his response, and I waited because I could see something was coming. And she looked at me and she said but Niven, isn't that disgusting? I thought how fascinating. I mean, she didn't say that the way he was doing it was utterly obnoxious, you know, and that he had turned into one of these people where his ego entered the room three seconds before he did so. Of course, it could have been obnoxious, but that's not what she said.

Niven Postma: 14:32

Response to what he was telling her was that's disgusting, as opposed to okay, hold on. What part of what he's doing here is worth understanding and worth listening to? Because, again, we can go to the extremes. Well, somebody's out there, somebody's engaging with other people building a reputation. Well, there they go, self-promoting. They could certainly be self-promoting. That's one end of the extreme. But the other end of the extreme is believing that your work will speak for itself. Well, it simply does not. Okay, because work does not speak, people speak, and so people who are in the trap of not understanding that invisible contributions have no political value, invisible contributions and invisible people are at the other end of the extreme. Somewhere in the middle is understanding the importance of this, making peace with it and then getting deliberate about it in a way that fits your style and fits the culture of the place that you're in.

John Neral: 15:36

That is such a powerful description, and when you said work doesn't speak for itself, people speak you just hit on such a huge pain point for people who listen to this show they don't want to brag, they don't want to self-promote, they're afraid it's going to impact their brand or their reputation and if I just do quality work, I'm going to be fine. And they often find, as we know, they are disappointed, and disappointed rather quickly, when other people get elevated quicker than they believe they should.

Niven Postma: 16:15

Yes, yes, and I mean my first thought to that would be that don't want to affect their reputation. Well, frankly, what reputation? Yes, if you're not talking about what you're doing, you really have to audit whether you have a reputation for anything, anything positive or negative. And I think the second thing, in talking about what you've done, again, you know, for heaven's sake, let's not go to the extremes. But in owning and claiming what you've done, it's also not about falling into the MAFA trap, m-a-f-a, mistaking activity for achievement. No one is interested in the hundred things you've done. What they're interested in is the impact of what you've done. And so that's wonderful that you've read 16 hours a day. So what? Tell me, claim for yourself what the point of that was, how it benefited the company, what insights people were able to get, what kind of runway you created for other people. It's not a list of activity, it's a list of impact. It's an acknowledgement of impact.

John Neral: 17:19

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John Neral: 18:23

Now let's get back to the episode. Let's talk about somebody who is new to an organization. They're mid-career professional. They've leveraged their talents and expertise. They're going into a new company. They're thrilled to start this new job on day one new title, great compensation package, all of those things. What would you offer them in terms of being mindful about understanding the officer organizational politics from day one?

Niven Postma: 18:55

Yeah, watch, watch, listen, observe. I think, particularly when we start a new role, we're so excited, slash, desperate to prove ourselves, to make sure that everyone knows that they hired the right person. We don't give ourselves the leeway and the latitude of the beginner's mind. And I have a colleague who has a great saying as a lecturer. When you come into her lectures her invitation is quiet your cleverness. You're here to learn. And particularly when you're new in an organization, quiet your cleverness about what you think is going on and who's in power. Because by definition they're in power, they're more senior.

Niven Postma: 19:44

You know, politics is about not always taking things at face value in terms of who's actually got the power. And there's a nice grid in the workbook that I have where it's about people. One of the options is to have people in your network who are persuaders. So they have a relatively low-level position, they've got a lot of influence and inevitably when I do a workshop or a lecture I'll ask people you know, give me a job in any organization, every organization. That is a classic persuader role and sometimes it takes a few minutes, but often it doesn't take that long. And people say it's the personal assistants. I say exactly, and why are personal assistants enormously influential politically Because they're gatekeepers.

Niven Postma: 20:31

They're gatekeepers to people in power, they're gatekeepers to information, and so that's just an easy, simple example of how taking things at face value and purely looking at the organogram to try to understand where power is is ignoring the informal side of power, which is the influence, and that's not contingent on level in a position. So watch, listen, observe, understand whose inputs sway the conversation, understand who gets listened. To understand how things work in this organization informally, are there WhatsApp chats that continue the conversation, where there are meetings before the meetings? Are coffee meetings really, really important, and you're never going to get anything done unless you have the right coffee meetings with the right people. Take the opportunity that probably doesn't exist for longer than the first hundred days of being the beginner and watching and understanding how this political culture works, which may be entirely different to any other political culture you've been in.

John Neral: 21:33

So many good things that you offered there. Now I will share with you that I will probably steal your colleague's line with a couple of my friends who have a tendency to get a little sassy at times and just say to them quiet your cleverness.

Niven Postma: 21:48

I love that American word sassy. I always picture somebody bracing their shoulders.

John Neral: 21:56

I keep the podcast G-rated so in case people are listening with small kids in the car, but you could substitute sassy for whatever kind of friendly other word you'd like to use. You called out a couple of things, especially in terms of the first hundred days, and they're thinking about what you said earlier about understanding the white space in between the words and the job description. What do you offer? If somebody feels that in their first hundred days they've navigated or aligned with the wrong people politically in the organization, how can they course correct that?

Niven Postma: 22:45

Again, I think the first step is to realize okay, hold on a second. And then to not necessarily disassociate but to start to build up other relationships, other alliances and alignments. Because certainly I think one of the biggest political mistakes you can make and I say it having made it is to become one person's person. So I did that once in my career, worked for still to this day the most gifted, impressive human being and manager I've ever met in my career, and one of the biggest mistakes that I made with him was to say listen, I've got a lot of stuff that I've got to do for you and deliver for you across the organization. Can you just give me air cover and work with the EXCO and deal with the politics there so that I don't have to, so that I can get on with the job? And the only thing I can fault this chap on was that he said yes to that request.

Niven Postma: 23:42

I had the best nine months of my career. I just got on and flew and did all manner of amazing things because he was dealing with all that stuff. But what he should have said and what I should have asked for is no, hold on, help me build relationships with Exco. Help me understand what I don't understand in the way they're showing up and some of their concerns about me and about the work. Because had I done that, rather than what I did do when he was then moved laterally and I was completely exposed, with Exco looking at me and me looking at them, without him there to play in between, it would have been a very different kettle of fish, and it actually was quite difficult because suddenly I was exposed, suddenly I was unprotected, and so I think the same thing is true here To have as many alliances and networks as you can and have them as broadly as you can cross-functionally, cross-levels, cross-divisions, cross levels, cross divisions.

Niven Postma: 24:40

One of the exercises in the workbook is to audit your network, and often people have very, very narrow networks and when things are highly politicized, to have a narrow network that is closely aligned with one way of doing things in an organization especially when you're new and you're not quite sure how things are going to play out and whether you've read things properly Rather than, like I said, disassociate and just start to amplify other networks and build on those as well.

John Neral: 25:11

What is the primary driver or motivator, or even emotion, for you when you think about successfully navigating these office politics? What's the result of that?

Niven Postma: 25:32

I think that there are a number of results, especially if you successfully navigate them in a way that you don't feel like you've sold your soul, which hopefully people understand you don't have to do. The end result is a level of ownership and agency and impact and understanding for yourself and your team and your stakeholders that you wouldn't otherwise have. What you would normally have is a level of frustration and resentment at a whole reality that people deny exists but which you know exists and which no one ever teaches you about. So, acknowledging that you're not imagining this and then getting skilled in a space that is real and important, I think, opens up all manner of possibilities, both personally and professionally, intellectually and emotionally.

John Neral: 26:31

So it leads me, then, to ask you this question If someone is a heart-centered, people-focused leader, they care deeply about their team, wanting them to succeed themselves individually, succeed the organization to succeed. Is there a way for them to strike that balance between caring for their team and navigating all of the organizational and office politics? That can ultimately be a happy marriage between the two.

Niven Postma: 27:10

Look, I think that's up to them. But I'll come to another quote from another American, martin Luther King, who, look, he is a minister and this is a g-rated podcast, so you know his. His quote is um kid friendly. I could think of stronger language for his quote, but this is his quote that power without love is reckless and abusive. Because I could think of much stronger language. Oh sure, yeah, oh sure, yeah, people and that's not to say it was all cupcakes and kisses all the time. I mean, I can think of times that I needed to fire people and it was ultimately the best for them and for the whole team.

Niven Postma: 28:08

Power and love can go hand in hand. In fact they must go hand in hand because, you know, as that quote, I think, says so beautifully, love in and of itself is not enough. Power without love has all kinds of horrendous consequences, and we see it in the world, not just the world of work. In the world. You have both rights and you make peace with that, both and, and you recognize that what sounds like a paradox is not a paradox, it's actually a marriage of immense possibility. I think you've got real leadership and the potential for real leadership.

John Neral: 28:46

Yeah, absolutely. I thank you for sharing that and offering those insights. This has been such a powerful and eye-opening conversation and one which I hope our listeners today will share and go back and replay some parts of this conversation as they figure out how they're building their mid-career GPS and thinking about what's next for them. But, niven, as we start wrapping up, what advice be it something you've already shared or something you haven't would you give someone who's listening today to help put another step in their mid-career GPS?

Niven Postma: 29:28

So I was speaking at a conference a while ago about the crucible experiences of life, and we've all had them, I think by the time we've gotten to the middle of our career, whatever they are. Mom, dad, I need to talk to you. I want a divorce. Thank you for your service. It's no longer required. You know, my crucible experience was Mrs Postman, we need to talk about your test results, and so I think we've all gotten to all your listeners, and you and me as well, john.

Niven Postma: 30:01

We can't have gotten to the middle of your career without some of these crucible experiences, and I think the advice that I would give, having thought about crucible experiences quite recently, was something that I thought about when I had mine, which is we all have two lives, and the second one starts the moment we truly understand we've only got one, and so I think that that is such a profound thing, which I hope for people, that that second life doesn't start just a few weeks before things end completely.

Niven Postma: 30:39

You know we have such a precious gift to be alive and to do work that matters for people in ways that matter At a time of immense turbulence and craziness in the world. You know we get to create if we're good managers, good leaders, decent human beings, loving partners and friends, we get to create islands of sanity for ourselves and for other people, and I think we must seize that because it's not just an obligation, it's an opportunity, and I think the world needs that. So create islands of sanity in the one life that you have, we all have, at a time when the world most needs it.

John Neral: 31:20

You have we all have at a time when the world most needs it. That is so poignant and powerful, given where we are right now, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing that with us. So, niven, this conversation's been wonderful and I thank you so much for being with us today. I want to turn the mic over to you. You mentioned about a free workbook that people can get to help them. Please tell us everything about you and your book and your work and where people can connect with you.

Niven Postma: 31:50

Yeah, john. So my website is nivinpostmacom. Lots of resources there. I've also just released a course with LinkedIn. We customized a special new course for LinkedIn and it's specifically around office politics for senior managers, so it's not simply the generic stuff, but at a senior management role, where, even more so, you have to understand that politics are not a distraction from your job, they are your job. That's a very useful and interesting resource, I think, and then, of course, my book, which is available on Amazon and in a number of other places, which you mentioned.

John Neral: 32:29

Yeah, I will make sure all of that information is in the show notes. But, nivin Pasma, thank you so much for being an incredible guest on the Mid-Career GPS podcast and I look forward to having you back soon.

Niven Postma: 32:43

Thank you, John. I loved the conversation. Nice way for me to end a Monday my side.

John Neral: 32:48

Yeah, same. Well, thank you so very much. Well, my friends Niven shared so many things about navigating office politics and what that specifically might look like for you, but if there's one big takeaway from this conversation, I want to offer you this Watch, listen and process as you figure out how to navigate the office politics as part of your job and your mid-career GPS. As you figure out whatever is next, you will be served far better by what you observe and how you can put those things into action. And Niven's a fantastic resource. I hope you will reach out and connect with her and thank you for spending some time with us today. So until next time, my friends, remember this you will build your mid-career GPS one mile or one step at a time, and how you show up matters. Make it a great rest of your day.

John Neral: 33:54

Thank you for listening to the Mid-Career GPS Podcast. Make sure to follow on your favorite listening platform and, if you have a moment, I'd love to hear your comments on Apple podcasts. Visit johnnerrellcom for more information about how I can help you build your mid-career GPS or how I can help you and your organization with your next workshop or public speaking event. Don't forget to connect with me on LinkedIn and follow me on social at John Darrell Coaching. I look forward to being back with you next week. Until then, take care and remember how we show up matters. Thank you.